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http://www.ata.org.au/forums/tags/heat-exchanger Sustainable living: making it happen en-US Tue, 07 Feb 2012 18:45:48 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.3 q http://www.ata.org.au/forums/search.php http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/319#post-21650 Thu, 08 Sep 2011 19:53:37 +0000 SgtThursday 21650@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>aburnett <a href="http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/319#post-2492">said</a>:</cite><br /> 2) We're heading towards a huge array of ETs to perform a variety of applications around the house, including ... power generation. Yep, power generation.</p> <p>...</p> <p>Our architect had suggested a product that was in development that used ETs to collect and store very hot water/steam in two 3000 litres tanks. Attached to the tanks was a steam turbine, similar to some other discussions elsewhere in this forum. The idea was that power could be generated from the stored hot water 24 hours a day - especially appealing given the 60c gross feed-in tariff we might be getting in NSW. </p> <p>...</p> <p>Alas, the product's inventor didn't have the knowledge to take it commercial, and has been distracted into other areas of research. </p> <p>...</p> <p>Antony </p></blockquote> <p>Howdy... I realise I've picked this up well after it's gone cold, but I think the message is still valid...</p> <p>BEWARE of this idea! I became aware of someone trying to hawk a similar system (quite likely the same) back in 2008, promising 24-hr power generation at 5 kW. Short answer is - the maths and physics just don't add up to anywhere remotely near that amount.</p> <p>Always be cautious when someone offers a fantastic-sounding product that is "still under testing" or "just waiting on certification". 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For cold insulate underneath and the walls but don't bother with the top other than shading. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-17905 Fri, 29 Apr 2011 13:10:59 +0000 mick_queensland 17905@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Thanks for that Skysolarman, that is a reasonably useful and totally unbiased review. Exactly what I was hoping for. </p> <p>Its a link worth clicking on if you havent already checked it out.</p> <p>Cheers again<br /> Mick </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-17861 Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:19:24 +0000 TonyT 17861@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Are the tanks listed under hot water services ? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-17848 Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:24:20 +0000 Skysolarman 17848@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>good luck Mick , this website shows all tanks that are certified in Australia <a href="http://www.energyrating.gov.au/" rel="nofollow">http://www.energyrating.gov.au/</a> </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-17803 Wed, 27 Apr 2011 11:30:15 +0000 mick_queensland 17803@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hi everyone,</p> <p>I thought I would post a question in this thread, rather than start a new one, since it would fit here. I am planning to install a Solar HWS in the very near future. I am still getting quotes. During my research into SHWS I found there are two main stainless steel hot water storage tank manufacturers in Australia. Does anyone know or can point to a link that tells which stainless steel tank has the best performance and insulation? I feel very certain that the performance of the whole system relies on the tank to keep the water hot for several days (poor Sun days)</p> <p>Cheers, Mick </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-16552 Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:52:25 +0000 TonyT 16552@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Everlast 03 9768 2404 are developing "clever" tanks. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-16543 Fri, 25 Mar 2011 08:53:31 +0000 TonyT 16543@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>The Siddons heat pump Hot Water Service uses a heat coil around a stainless steel Everlast brand tank.</p> <p>I think the Everlast tank is made in Victoria.</p> <p>Do Everlast make a tank that uses stratified temperature and heat exchangers ? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/635#post-16519 Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:27:36 +0000 TonyT 16519@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>What brands of heat exchangers are available for hydronic heating ?</p> <p>A heat exchanger is used to keep the water in the secondary circuit that heats the steel radiators completely isolated from the domestic hot water. </p> <p>I bought a 300mm long Sondex SL34-BR25-10 for $320. </p> <p>SL34-BR25-10 means brazed (SL) 0.34 square metres of heat exchange surface, BR mounting, 25mm BSP male threads, 10 plates. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/635#post-16515 Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:10:19 +0000 TonyT 16515@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Grundfos UPS20-60N pump at $400 is more expensive than many other circulating pumps ($200).</p> <p>When I compared the pump curves, the Grundfos pump curve showed higher flow rates and lower (half) electricity consumption. </p> <p>I bought Grundfos because the lower running cost will pay for the higher purchase price within about 4 years. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/635#post-16514 Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:00:38 +0000 TonyT 16514@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Copper radiator panels are available from </p> <p>Greenheat at <a href="http://www.greenheat.com.au" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenheat.com.au</a> (? Australian)<br /> Runonsun at <a href="http://www.runonsun.com.au" rel="nofollow">http://www.runonsun.com.au</a> (Chinese)</p> <p>Runonsun also sells Chinese stainless steel radiators</p> <p>Can members provide the names of other manufacturers and suppliers ?</p> <p>Brands of steel radiator panels include</p> <p>Zenitherm (expensive: may be losing market share)<br /> Newstar (Turkey)<br /> Korado Radic (Hungary)<br /> ? brands from Italy<br /> ? brands from China</p> <p>Can members provide the names of other manufacturers and suppliers ? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/319#post-15431 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 22:10:30 +0000 Infinitybatman 15431@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>G'day aburnett, wish i found this conversation earlier.<br /> I have an indoor swimming pool on the coast in Victoria, which is about 65,000 litres. Me and my wife run a swim school from here which we opened last April. We have the temperature at 32-33 degrees year round ( classed as a thermal pool, for babies and re-hab.) I bought a heat pump from U.S.A which cost me 6,000 deliverd to my door (taxes customs,etc. included). This is currently our only source of heating, but i'm in the process of having professionals do me a computer model test for running evacuated tubes.<br /> Our heat pump costs about 5-$6000 a year to run, i reckon you could do it somewhere between 1-$3000.<br /> Heat pumps are much more energy efficient than gas and they last longer too. The only down fall is that they can be a little bit noisy ( newer models are getting quieter ) and it takes longer to heat up.<br /> I've tried to keep this brief, let me know if you want any more info. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-14632 Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:07:09 +0000 munter 14632@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Would that be a rebranded Latento/rotex tank? That seems like a good tank but the prices I have been quoted unfortunately put it way out of reach. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-14616 Thu, 10 Feb 2011 14:15:27 +0000 Greg 14616@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I have been reliably informed that Apricus Solar have a new 500ltr highly insulated Polymer tank about to be released. Hope the "price is right". </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-14112 Tue, 01 Feb 2011 13:56:45 +0000 argonaut 14112@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>There has been quite a bit of work done on stratified tanks in NZ for warm water feed in, believe it or not, the dairy industry. They have found that a simple siphon system restores the sharp cutoff band necessary for a stratified tank to work.<br /> The Rotex tanks have been installed in quite a few hospitals around Sydney and seem to work fine coupled to evac tube panels. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-14069 Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:45:24 +0000 Jeffbloggs 14069@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>s2s<br /> Are these SS tanks pressure tested, do you have any specs?</p> <p>BTW I think you are correct with the heat stratification, it only really works with low flow feeds and large capacity tanks which actually allow for the water to be largely undisturbed.</p> <p>However you said:<br /> "There is higher heat loss caused by the higher temperature differences at the hot end"</p> <p>What do you mean by this? HE function best when operated at max Delta T. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-14055 Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:21:51 +0000 sun2steam 14055@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I ordered these tanks from China. Low cost and good quality. Sea freight to Australia is cheap. But fees, charges and transport in Australia is expensive. Could be much cheaper when ordering container loads.</p> <p>These tanks like all directly sourced solar hot water products do not have Watermark (compliance with Australian standards) but as far as I know this is not relevant if they are not connected to mains water. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-14021 Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:56:36 +0000 Greg 14021@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Thanks Eco I'll contact them and see what I can find.<br /> s2s, I would appreciate it if you would like to share those details about the SS tanks. They sound like a very good option. Feel free to PM me. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13868 Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:56:34 +0000 Eco 13868@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I agree with ghostgum - need a larger volume of water for space heating.</p> <p>Came across this tank while browsing. No idea about availability or cost.</p> <p><a href="http://www.australiansunenergy.com.au/water_tanks.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.australiansunenergy.com.au/water_tanks.html</a> </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13850 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 17:41:36 +0000 sun2steam 13850@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I doubt the value of stratification in a tank for space heating.<br /> - It is not like for hot water where it makes some sense to be able to 'suck' the last bit of hot water from the tank<br /> - There is higher heat loss caused by the higher temperature differences at the hot end<br /> - it needs more materials for heat exchangers<br /> - in the case of Latento the heat exchanger add heat resistance to heat transfer (= reduced efficiency). </p> <p>I have bought 2 500L stainless steel tanks (with two internal coil heat exchangers) from China for about 500$ each. Import and transport added about the same amount. So I got two 500L SS hot water tanks for about $1000 each. I doubt if the purchase price of a Latento tank comes even close. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13845 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:19:40 +0000 Greg 13845@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Bit of a biased article perhaps but it sums it all up nicely. <a href="http://www.solarhome.com.au/?paged=2" rel="nofollow">http://www.solarhome.com.au/?paged=2</a> "Solar Hot Water? It’s all in the tank."</p> <p>I wish these guys (<a href="http://www.azureenergy.com.au/index.php)could" rel="nofollow">http://www.azureenergy.com.au/index.php)could</a> offer me a solution at a reasonable price. I've seen H2 storage systems before, one guy in the US and in Malaysia (pretty cheap too) <a href="http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/000604.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/000604.html</a>.</p> <p>I keep chasing my tail on this stuff waiting for someone to deliver. Ah well , go with what is best at the time and replace it later.</p> <p>Not sure how much these are but could be an alternative<br /> <a href="http://rotex-solar-hot-water-hydronic-heating.com.au/html/domestic/34/solar-stratified-storage-tank" rel="nofollow">http://rotex-solar-hot-water-hydronic-heating.com.au/html/domestic/34/solar-stratified-storage-tank</a> </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13841 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 13:42:41 +0000 ghostgum 13841@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>An acquaintance also argues for using active systems for solar heating, on the the basis that you can control where and how much heat. Although the passive camp would argue that if you do it right, you don't need to do so.</p> <p>Radiant panels heat dissipation figures are based on 70C water. They still work at 40-50C, but at only a fraction of the capacity. That just means that your pump has to run a bit more. If the objective is to keep the house warm overnight, then 40-50C water may be Ok. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13838 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:30:38 +0000 munter 13838@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I too am looking into this sort of a system. We are planning on using evac tubes, insulated storage and in slab hydronics. I haven't yet found an alternative to the latento and so am inclined towards custom built (or re-purposed) tanks. Steel caged IBCs might be OK though I'm not sure about their ability to withstand really hot water. The plastic might start getting a bit soft above 60 degrees I think. They are cheap and package up nicely to go under our house though. More work required here.</p> <p>We are looking at in slab hydronics because of the lower water temp requirement. It might be a bit of an ask to get water up to 70 degrees to work in radiant panels whereas the 40-50 degrees used in the slab seems much more achievable.</p> <p>Ghostgum - I agree that there is significant thermal mass in the building structure and this would be a useful place to store heat. The problem with this is that you can't control the dissapation of that heat into the living space. When the water is stored separately you can control its deployment with the use of a pump/controller. If the building materials are the heat store then you could only store so much before it would cause the building to overheat. At least that is my thinking at the moment. Does that sound logical? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13833 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 11:57:32 +0000 ghostgum 13833@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Mythbusters did the steam powered rocket, but they needed to remove the temperature/pressure relief valve. They used electricity to heat the tank, allowing them to easily measure the energy input.</p> <p>I'd like to do a retrofit of solar boost to my radiator panel hydronic system, but current estimates are that it will be expensive given the amount of gas that I could save.</p> <p>Is this a retrofit to an existing building, or a new building? If the latter, then heat storage in the bricks and concrete of the building might be cheaper. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13832 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 11:48:28 +0000 Greg 13832@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Thanks - I had a look at that site so have a few ideas but hoping not to reinvent the wheel, plus I don't want to build something and setup harmonics in the heat exchanger etc<br /> plus need to find someone to build it. Also need to ensure thermosyphon will happen in case of power / pump failures. I don't want a steam powered rocket in the house.<br /> I am planning on a combination of floor and radiant panels. All in the design stage. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13831 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 11:41:15 +0000 ghostgum 13831@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I haven't seen anything, and suspect it would be custom job. For hydronic heating, I worked out that you need 1000-2000 litres of water to last from a sunny day into a cloudy day. My thought was to use a stainless steel rainwater tank, then to build the insulation around it, because I can the tank under my house and out of the weather and sun.</p> <p>Have a look at what people have done on <a href="http://builditsolar.com/" rel="nofollow">http://builditsolar.com/</a></p> <p>What sort of hydronic heating? Floor or radiant panels? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1569#post-13825 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:34:30 +0000 Greg 13825@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hi, I'm looking for a cheaper alternative to the Latento unit(google if you have not seen them before)to store heat from Solar and probably a wet back wood heater. Has anyone come across any Australian made systems or has anyone made their own?<br /> I want to extract hot water for showers etc and for hydronic heating. I want to ensure the systems don't intermix so heat exchangers need to be part of the solution.</p> <p>thanks in advance </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/193#post-13659 Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:15:40 +0000 ghostgum 13659@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>See the article in ReNew about 1 year ago. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/193#post-13650 Sun, 23 Jan 2011 18:04:17 +0000 jdaley 13650@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I am ready to build a system.<br /> But I need facts or examples of systems rather than guess's.<br /> Has anybody found anything giving such deatils please? Thanks </p>