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http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ Sustainable living: making it happen en-US Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:25:08 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.3 q http://www.ata.org.au/forums/search.php http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2957#post-24661 Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:17:11 +0000 sneddo 24661@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>We are off-grid with a 2kw solar and 500w (rarely!) wind system. We are in the Upper Hunter valley NSW where it gets fairly hot in summer. I'm looking at putting A/C in our bedroom which will only be run during the day when I'm asleep (when working nightshift). Can anyone point me to a super efficient A/C? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/243#post-1380 Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:05:25 +0000 Huski 1380@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hi </p> <p>Can anyone point my in the right direction. I have a 750W pool pump that uses heaps of electricity over the summer - although I do restrict its use as much as possible. </p> <p>I am wanting to get a pool pump that is very efficient of equivalent size as it is a big pool but run it off a solar panel so that on any sunny day throughout the year, the pool pump can just run by itself. However, I guess it would also need some sort of override for any night time use of the pool as the filter should be on whenever people are swimming. So does that mean a battery storage or a swap to mains electricity? It needs to be something I don't have to think about and hopefully maintenance free. I am also in the throws of making solar heating unit for the pool which needs an additional pump (I think) so would need to cover this as well.</p> <p>CHeers </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2942#post-24571 Sat, 04 Feb 2012 08:20:56 +0000 projects 24571@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I have a small 1.5 PV system installed at our suburban home (VICTORIA). A neighbour recently commented that his electricity bill was going up because of PEOPLE LIKE ME who had installed a solar system and were taking advantage of the rebates and feed in tariffs.</p> <p>He was apparently informed by a commercial TV program which I was suspicious of given it's reputation but still would like to check. I'd like to respond to his comment however I need some help clarifying this first.</p> <p>Is this true? Partly true?</p> <p>And if true....is this necessarily a bad thing?...and is large scale solar the better option?</p> <p>Thanks for your help. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2951#post-24640 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 14:05:47 +0000 rlwalters 24640@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I had a 3kW solar PV system installed on my roof in Sydney more than a year ago. Without going through all the details, the company that supplied it (Nu Energy) did an audit some months after installation and found some kind of mistake in wiring. The technician said that the voltage was reading about half what it should be. For the first year of operation my energy output only averaged about 7.1kWhrs/day which is well under what I should expect (I believe to be more like 12 kWhr/day).</p> <p>After numerous phone calls and a number of months later, I finally got them to come and fix the problem. Since then the energy output seems to have improved but I need to monitor for a longer period to see. Apart from looking at the readout on the inverter, my main means of monitoring output is via my bills which come quarterly.</p> <p>What I would like advice on is:<br /> What is the best way to verify the energy output of my system and whether it is producing what I should expect?<br /> Would it be a good idea to get someone to independently check the system out? Who and how much might that cost?<br /> What course of action should I take to resolve the issue if the system is still not performing up to scratch?<br /> Is it appropriate to make a claim for the income that I have forgone (in relation to feed in tariff) due to the fault of the supplier? Do you know of anyone that has had success making such claims?</p> <p>Hope someone can help,</p> <p>Rick </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2956#post-24660 Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:00:42 +0000 johnirace 24660@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hope to see you guys at the Sustainable Living Festival and especially the Film Festival in Melbourne. I am waiting for "Home", heard much about Yann Arthus Betrand. This is a very important event and I hope it would raise more awareness to ATA in Australia.</p> <p>JOhn</p> <p>--------------------------------------------------------------<br /> "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."<br /> <a href="http://www.glassesoff.com/?page_id=1235">‫‪‫improve vision</a><br /> <a href="http://www.glassesoff.com/?page_id=1256">‫how to improve eyesight</a> </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/471#post-3909 Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:31:43 +0000 Annette 3909@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hi</p> <p>I'd really appreciate some recommendations about double glazed window companies and their products.</p> <p>I've had quotes for replacing the windows/doors in my(small) house with double-glazed windows from a number of companies including:</p> <p>1) Energywise/Certainteed $31,000 &amp; 45,000 including installation(uPVC - 25 year warranty)<br /> 2) Eurotech $25,000 including installation (uPVC - 10 year warranty)<br /> 3) Yokor ~29,000 not including installation (thermal break aluminium - 7 year warranty)<br /> 4) Trend - Haven't got whole-houe price yet probably similar to Certainteed.(wooden - 7 year warranty)</p> <p>The window/door styles are all similar - with just minor variations (as Yokor and Eurotech can't do the 4 double hung windows quoted by Certainteed). </p> <p>The Certainteed quotes for both their cheap Energywise and Certainteed premium product has increased markedly just in the last few weeks (both jumped by ~$15,000 over the last 3 years ago, but with a drop in the Certainteed warranty of from 35 to 25 years in the same period!) Is the quality worth the significant extra cost?</p> <p>All feedback on your direct or indirect experiences appreciated. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2955#post-24656 Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:57:33 +0000 ozzie.freddo 24656@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I am getting the premium feed in tariff (well I hope so as I have never had a valid account since connection of my PV system in Aug last year) and am wanting to change service providers (to one who doesn't charge so excessively for peak usage).<br /> Will my eligibility for the premium feed in tariff transfer automatically or are there potential problems? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2954#post-24655 Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:26:30 +0000 Allen Chen 24655@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Micoe Solar Energy CO.,LTD is the main solar thermal systems manufacturer in China since 1999. </p> <p>Products : Flate plate and Vaccum tube solar water heater,Solar heat pipe and U pipe collector and we supplying OEM.solar heating systems for families,factories,swimming pools and industries around the world.<br /> Manufacture bases : Lianyungang dongxin base,Lianyungang ninghai base,Luoyang base,Yanzhou base.<br /> Certificates : SABS,Solarkeymark,standards mark,CE,SRCC,,etc.<br /> Number of employees : 7,000 staffs and nearly 500 engineers<br /> Annual export turnover : USD 30,000,000<br /> Service : Training and technology support<br /> Warranty : 3 years and 15 year life expectancy<br /> Delivery time : 3 weeks</p> <p>Looking forward to hearing from you at your convenience.<br /> <a href="mailto:allen@micoe.com">allen@micoe.com</a> </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/997#post-10372 Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:25:03 +0000 rockabye 10372@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I stumbled over some good sites related to cycling that may be useful depending on where you live.</p> <p>This one is a good place to start.</p> <p><a href="http://www.livinggreener.gov.au/take-action/travel-smarter/switch-to-a-bike" rel="nofollow">http://www.livinggreener.gov.au/take-action/travel-smarter/switch-to-a-bike</a></p> <p>Not sure what the helpline does but might give it a call to find out. </p> <p>1800 106 059 </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2295#post-20124 Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:11:09 +0000 Adi 20124@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hi all, just thought I would post on some recent testing of the 7W Phillips Masterled MR16 globes.</p> <p>These things are great on the light output side, the colour (2700k) is spot on close to an incandescent and some halogens. They are so close to the output of a halogen they even 'ramp up' slowly when turned on like a halogen! I have tried 10 other MR16 LED globes from 4W to 9W and only 2 come close to the quality of the light output.</p> <p>Now there's always a catch with high powered MR16 globes, they either run too hot, are too big with a huge heat-sink, have a terrible tinge to the colour or don't actually put out what they say they will. Well in this case there is a major drawback - it has an integral fan, in my house with normal low ceilings they can be easily heard when the house is quiet, up to 10 metres away.</p> <p>The beauty of the fan however, is the intake of the globe is at the front of the globe at the sides, and the exhaust output is out the hole in the middle at the front. the back of the globe is just plastic, and stays very cool during operation - I'm sure it's not recommended, but you could put these things directly under insulation without the globe overheating. This would still be a fire risk if the globe ever happened to burn out its electronics as it could burn out the plastic back piece. You could however use Isolite/Downlight igloo's/Covers safely and without worry that your expensive LED down-lights are going to overheat and dim, that way you still get improved draught &amp; insulation benefits.</p> <p>I disassembled the unit and took the lens off the device, you then end up with an ugly to look at, but super bright 150 degree light. These things have obviously had a lot of work done on the electronics side, they have about 4 times the electronic components of the average chinese LED, with three inductors and various chips and resistors. Apparently they are much more compatible with electronic transformers and dimmers, I do not have the set-up to test this however.</p> <p>Anyone else tried these out yet? I'd be interested to know your thoughts </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2953#post-24646 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:36:15 +0000 mykoolthevegan 24646@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hi guys,</p> <p>I have 3kW system with REC panels and an Effekta 3kW inverter. I want to be able to see more information on my power production, is there some way I can hook a computer or meter into my inverter to track what is happening through the day?</p> <p>Michael </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2952#post-24645 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:30:37 +0000 Rob Wilson 24645@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>It has been requested that I do an energy assessment on a large mixed business. To do a proper analysis of the I need to an itemised assessment of each appliance.<br /> There is a lot of material out there on domestic refrigeration but not on commercial.Can anyone advise me on the efficiency of commercial refrigeration, or give me a clue of where to look. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/899#post-8672 Wed, 15 Sep 2010 00:48:13 +0000 syn 8672@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Smart Meters Only benefit the Electricity distributors/retailers and give them<br /> the capacity and tools to increase energy chargers in the near future. There is absolutely not one single piece of evidence that the installation of smart meters will benefit the consumer or reduce energy consumption or greenhouse gases.</p> <p>The taxpayer is been forced to pay for private business infra-structure and asset improvemet with no benefit to the consumer and no guarantee that energy costs will be lower - infact energy costs have already risen.</p> <p>SAY NO TO SMART METER INSTALLATION WHEN THE KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR - BY LAY THEY CANNOT FORCE YOU TO ACCEPT THE SMART METER AND ACCORDING TO FAIR BUSINESS TRADING LAWS THEY CANNOT CHARGE YOU ADDED EXPENSES FOR INFRA_STRUCTURE COSTS ASSOCIATED FOR SOMETHING YOU HAVE NOT GOT</p> <p>WRITE TO YOUR LOCAL AND FEDERAL MINISTERS AND ASK THEM TO LLODGE YOUR PROTEST AGAINST SMART METER ROLL-OUTS - ITS FRAUD!</p> <p>IF THEY (INSTALLATION CONTRACTORS) SEND YOU A LETTER THAT TELLS YOU THAT SMART METERS WILL BE INSTALLED IN YOUR AREA - SIMPLY RING THE CONTACT NUMBER AND TELL THEM THAT YOU DO NOT WANT A SMART METER INSTALLED - THEY WILL SIMPLY CROSS YOU OFF THEIR LIST!</p> <p>YOUR ARE NOT LEGALLY OBLIDGED TO HAVE A SMART METER INSTALLED - YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO REFUSE - AND REMEMBER THAT NO ONE CAN ENTER YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT!</p> <p>SMART METER BYLAW's HAVE BEEN INACTED BUT THEY CANNOT BE ENFORCED UNTILL 2013 - BY THEN IF ENOUGH PEOPLE HAVE VOICE THEY COMPLAINTS THEN IT IS PROBABLE THAT THE BYLAW WILL BE RECEEDED.</p> <p>ACT NOW -- DO NOT ACCEPT SMART METERS UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT AND THE PRIVATE BUSINESS CAN PROVIDE WRITTEN GUARANTEES OF THEIR BENEFITS TO YOU AND WRITTEN GUARANTEE"S THAT YOUR ENERGY COSTS WILL BE AT LEAST 20% LOWER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THE ROLL-OUT -- LOWER PRICE GUARANTEE MUST BE FOR A MINIMUM OF 5 YEARS with KNOWN INCREASE LEVELS AFTER 5 YEARS. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2950#post-24636 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:11:51 +0000 LeeBee 24636@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Can anybody PM with details of companies in Tassie, I,m a POM looking to emigrate and are looking for good(specialist) firms to apply to. I run my own company in UK and are a bit of a self confessed renewable freak!! </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/128#post-530 Sat, 09 May 2009 20:48:25 +0000 GJOESQ 530@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Knowledgeable ATA Members,</p> <p>I'm in the process of selecting an evacuated tube Solar HW system and have received quotes for both the Apricus and Hills products. </p> <p>The Apricus folks tell me that their product is excellent and I won't be disappointed with it. </p> <p>The Hills folks tell me the opposite, stating that the Apricus system i) manifold isn't as efficient as theirs, ii) doesn't have a steam release valve, iii) has poorer quality pump, iv) shouldn't offer a glass lines tank as it won't stand the 80 degree C temperatures.</p> <p>The Hills is more expensive. Is it really that much better? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2631#post-22858 Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:48:26 +0000 rockabye 22858@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Now that we are seeing the reality of resource depletion starting to bite we need to put strategies in place to deal with the 'new' world without cheap oil.</p> <p>As predicted in Heinberg's book 'End of Growth', Europe is now coming to grips with that reality. We won't be far behind.</p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15669197" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15669197</a></p> <p>Transition Towns are one concept being explored to deal with the developing issues.</p> <p><a href="http://www.transitionnetwork.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.transitionnetwork.org/</a></p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_town" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_town</a></p> <p>Nice little video</p> <p><a href="http://www.transitionnetwork.org/resources/anita-sancha-eco-animations-past-peak-oil" rel="nofollow">http://www.transitionnetwork.org/resources/anita-sancha-eco-animations-past-peak-oil</a> </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2949#post-24621 Sat, 04 Feb 2012 21:26:00 +0000 franks 24621@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>4 string PV combiner with 4 DIN HRC Fuses with 10 amp fuses. mounted in 6 pole DIN Indoor Inclousure.<br /> Suitible for upto 4 strings..to meet AS5033 standards.<br /> pic of combiner:</p> <p><a href="http://forums.energymatters.com.au/used-wind-solar/topic3366.htmlure" rel="nofollow">http://forums.energymatters.com.au/used-wind-solar/topic3366.htmlure</a></p> <p>$70 including postage within OZ</p> <p><a href="mailto:franks@alphalink.com.au">franks@alphalink.com.au</a> </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/451#post-3649 Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:20:38 +0000 munter 3649@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hi all,<br /> I'm getting close to installing a water pump for the new rainwater tanks that I've been installing and am looking to get some advice about pumps. What are the good brands and models to look out for? Our house is single level at the moment but might grow upwards in the future. The tanks are located with their base at about 1.5 m below the existing floor level. I want to use the water for toilet flushing, laundry and two external taps for garden watering. What would people recommend? What brands should I stay away from?</p> <p>Thanks for the help. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2100#post-18406 Sun, 15 May 2011 16:37:44 +0000 chazwah 18406@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I watched a program on abc 24 which was a forum hosted by tim flannery on the carbon tax.I thought there was to be a whole series of these forums but have been unable to find any info?can anyone help </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2935#post-24486 Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:36:30 +0000 projects 24486@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I have a small PV system (8 panels) - installed now for about a year on a tile roof.<br /> I've seen advertising for the cleaning of panels. </p> <p>Is the cleaning of solar panels something I can do myself or is this one for the experts?<br /> I'm familiar with getting about on the roof - but are there hazards with DIY panel cleaning.</p> <p>And if it is ok to DIY, are there any recommendations for how to go about it.<br /> Thanks. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2940#post-24526 Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:20:49 +0000 Bullwitter 24526@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Will a Hills Evacuated Tube work vertically - header at the top of course? I am keen to hear from anyone who has actually tried this. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/52#post-112 Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:58:15 +0000 photomac 112@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>I have been enjoying changing my lighting over to LED. However, I have now discovered the downlight replacements to LED, from 12V halogen (MR16), is causing interference of DIgital TV reception. The RF noise may be coming from the transformers being under powered. Anybody else suffering from, or overcome, this problem? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2190#post-19137 Mon, 06 Jun 2011 10:34:30 +0000 sun2steam 19137@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>As the subject climate change sneaks into various discussions, this thread should provide a location to discuss issues about climate change in a fair way using respectful language as opposed to the heated, people bashing 'discussion' in some other forums. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/653#post-5688 Wed, 26 May 2010 03:03:55 +0000 MikeH 5688@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Hi people,</p> <p>I'm after any feedback on slab-edge or under-slab insulation. This is to go hand in hand with hydronic slab heating. I'm aware of some products - Multi Panel and Aero Gel and also Waffle Pods. Are there any others in use out there that are cost effective and user friendly?</p> <p>Thanks for great feedback on hydronic slab heating over the last year - It's still research in progress for me at the moment. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2782#post-23753 Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:50:58 +0000 ecogirl 23753@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>There are not many straw bale builders over here in WA but there is a fairly new one who is excellent.<br /> HIs name is Dave Morris and I recently attended one of his training courses.<br /> His knowledge and workmanship is excellent! The course was great fun.<br /> He has a spray render machine and does the render for you. Now that sounds like a great idea.</p> <p>Anyone who is thinking about building straw bale in Perth or anywhere in WA I would recommend you attend one of these courses.<br /> Website is <a href="http://www.strawtegic.com.au" rel="nofollow">http://www.strawtegic.com.au</a></p> <p>If you need a straw bale builder in Perth or WA areas Strawtegic Concepts also do expert straw bale construction, or on-site consulation and training but they specialise in spray rendering now that sounds like a good idea! </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/806#post-7686 Mon, 09 Aug 2010 01:05:22 +0000 aussiesue 7686@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>The suburban area of Brisbane in which I am building, is unsewered. My block is just over 600sqm. The depth, width and distance between trenches required by the council means that it is desirable to save as much length of trenching as possible so it can be fitted on the block. A septic system requires exactly twice the length of trenching per bedroom as a system that incorporates a treatment system. My preference would have been to have a composting toilet going into a septic system (required by council) but I can't fit enough metres of trenching on my block for a septic system, so have to have a treatment plant. It is very difficult to get information about various systems apart from on sellers' websites.</p> <p>The most commonly fitted treatment plants in the area require electrical and mechanical aeration before water capable of watering gardens at subsurface level emerges from the system. However council will not allow this (watering the garden), so the water has to be run into trenches. These treatment plants require inspection and servicing three monthly. I hate the thought of having to have constant electricity use, moving parts in a pretty dodgy environment and 4 times yearly inspections and so was initially attracted by the biolytix system. </p> <p>As far as I can tell it is a good system - but not suitable for me because I will not live permanently in my house and may be away for months at a time. If this is the case, the organisms in the biolytix system will die and a new "starter kit" is required. I only found this out by accident but when I asked the biolytix company about it they confirmed that, yes, this is the case.</p> <p>The other system I have found which seems to fit my needs is the Ecosafe, which introduces aerobic processing of the waste to the same level as above via a passive sand filter rather than aerating via machine. It also requires inspection just once per year. And is OK if not used for months at a time. Does anyone have any experience (particularly long term)of home sewage treatment plants? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/619#post-5302 Fri, 07 May 2010 17:36:09 +0000 lillypilly 5302@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>One of the unexpected (and undesirable) consequences of having a new meter installed at our house so we could benefit from the FIT is that now when we get our electricity bill there is no information in the "previous" and "current" reading columns on our bill. The only reading we get is "useage". I complained to the retailer saying that it was unreasonable to be charged for something that could not be verified and was told there was nothing they could do about it that was all the information that the meter provides. I think that is crazy because when I go outside and look at my meter it has a running sum of all the electricity we have used since it was first installed. Even if they didn't get these figures from the meter surely in their database they could generate the equivalent figures and put them on the bill.</p> <p>Luckily for me I keep a record because when the meter reader estimated one of my bills because our gate was closed I called up the retailer to tell them that it was wrong and they told me it would be corrected in the next bill. But without any "previous" and "current" readings it would not have been possible to know if they had corrected it, except that I had kept my own records. In fact they didn't correct the error and so I had to contact them a second time when they said they would get "higher quality data" from the distributor and within two days I got a corrected bill. This time it was right. </p> <p>The point is for the average customer who doesn't have a fascination with their electricity usage and doesn't keep a tally they would have no way of knowing what they should be charged or if their bill was incorrect (and it seems there is not shortage of stories of incorrect bills with the new meters). </p> <p>Does anyone else find the lack of readings on their bill objectionable. Is it the same everywhere or is it just Jemena in Victoria? Is it just the EM1200 meter that is the problem? Will it always be like this or will this change once everyone gets the new TOU meters? Surely not everyone is going to just accept this without question? </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/654#post-5699 Wed, 26 May 2010 12:11:17 +0000 Benny 5699@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>We have a 500W grid connect solar system which had to be moved from our old premises to new ones. When we asked Synergy to come and approve the new installation + install new meter etc, they said we couldn't install it because the inverter is no longer approved. Even though once it was in at the previous premises, they had no objections to it staying in !</p> <p>Is there any way we can use this system without having to buy a new inverter ? i.e. "trick" the inverter in to thinking that the mains supply is present so that it outputs power and doesn't auto-shutdown. We thought we could use it just to power a couple of off-grid things. I'm presuming here that the output will be close enough to 250V 50Hz without the mains as a reference. </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1510#post-13419 Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:24:55 +0000 dave lawrence 13419@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>it was not proposed to be a closed system .<br /> i am on <a href="mailto:davelawrence@exemail.com.au">davelawrence@exemail.com.au</a> </p> http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2939#post-24524 Tue, 31 Jan 2012 17:14:20 +0000 spiralcellar 24524@http://www.ata.org.au/forums/ <p>Does anyone have any reliable historical data on soil temperatures in Sydney at depths of 1, 2 and 3m? </p>