What do members think the price of RECs will do in the future?
Promise of falling Photovoltaic [PV] costs
(88 posts) (34 voices)-
They'll stay at $40 from Jan 1 next year, but I think they are on the rise since they split the REC's system into Big Producing Systems and Small Household Systems.
http://greenmarkets.com.au/ says spot price is $46 ...
Posted Monday 12 Apr 2010 @ 7:22:34 am from IP # -
GBD it is nice to see all the work you've done and to see that this is your way of "getting involved". It is really great that you've spent your time and effort collecting information and doing all this research on behalf of others. I think my credentials over yours speak volumes in the work I've done that you simply haven't!
As for your term deposit remark, seriously why are you even here...?
1./ I have friends who regularly import 2-3 40" containers a month from overseas and will probably be using their Freight Forwarding agent whom I have already been in contact with for any bulk buy over here in Adelaide. I have also been in contact with many like minded people trying to do the same thing, one was in Melbourne in a ReNew issue and one from yesterday was in Brisbane somewhere. http://www.localpower.net.au is the ideal place to start if you’re interested.
2./ One wouldn't be taking $10,000 from 100 people it is more like $4,000 from about 50 people. A bit of cash yes but you’ll get that back in the form of the Solar Credits. It is about $450 per panel delivered including freight cost and GST vs that same panel over here for around $800 with the “national companies” as you call them. What's that about 50% profit margin, not too bad really?
3./ This is why a solar system costs heaps more than they should as the panels are a large proportion of the total cost. If you reduce the system cost by almost $4,000 you'll get loads more people wanting larger systems that seem to occur in the USA. You might even make other savings in parts like racking components, cables and so forth. This has nothing to do with the labour component for the qualified installers who have to go up on my 2 storey roof and bolt racking and then haul panels onto the roof. This is about making the components cost cheaper for everyone!
4./ As for the partner Sun Electronics isn't an overnight company as you can see here, http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=page_4
Maybe you'd prefer to deal with companies that are less reputable from China but I don't, also there is no language barrier dealing with the USA, just that of funny green paper money!5./ One would of course need to collect the funds to buy the container (CIF) of PV panels and to pay the Freight and the Marine Insurance, plus the GST in advance. Overall it isn't as much as you think it is at around an added cost of AU$15-20 a panel, which the saving would be $350+. The only difficulty would be that most bank accounts have daily limits and one needs to factor in an exchange rate calculation.
In my IT business I pride myself in the fact that I do stay in contact with my clients and all are repeat customers because of this.
6./ Who said anything about holding onto the money for 12 months, again this is you? It only takes the container ship 5-6 weeks to get here, not sure where you think they would be coming from. One would organise everything that needs to be organised work out the exchange rate conversion to give a price. Collect the needed funds and then set the container on its way, distribute them when they arrive.
7./ Yes one would have to include a % for possible costs but this would only a couple of bucks per panel. The Marine Insurance is 0.5% of total container cost; the container freight is about $10 per panel.
Also the idea of a bulk buy idea is not selling you a cheap PV system with crappy parts this is taking the major component costs out of the hands of those making let’s face it, huge sums of your money, the industry margins as you call them. Saving $350 per panel and there are 480+ panels in container let’s face it that’s a gigantic slab of PV system size your just not getting.
8./ I have an email from SMA Australia saying "It does not matter where you purchase your inverter, it will be warranted by SMA worldwide." Hewlett Packard offers worldwide warranty service on notebooks. Not sure what you buy that assumes you need to send it back to the manufacturing country to get it fixed. PV Panels have no moving parts, if some are damaged in transit then that’s up to the insurer. Damage on your roof is up to your home & contents insurer.
SMA does make inverters for certain countries and these are suffixed with a country code. We like many other countries use a 230/240v power grid system so one of them would be fine to purchase from. The current intention is to get the inverter from the installer as I do believe in supporting a local business, but could perhaps be purchased as a group from them rather than individually.
9./ In answer to the “Why do they do this?”. I currently have a hard drive that is on its way back to the USA to get oneself fixed as the distributor is not in a position to replace the WD Raid Edition v2-Green Power drive with one out of the spare parts pool as would normally happen with drives but will probably come back to me reconditioned with a 12 month warranty.
Again I do believe that PV panels have no moving parts and wear by the sun reduces the output overtime anyway. This affects all panels so don’t think this will be an issue. It might well be an idea to put aside a handful of panels as spares.
10./ As for damage in transit this is what the Marine Insurance is for and the quote I got was 0.5% of total container cost so not a great deal per panel around $2 each. I’m not concerned about the noise of the container ship during transport or the clang when they place it onto the back of a side loader at the dock. Again insurance is a small overall addition which adds piece of mind in case something happens; this is why you insure your house and car.
11./ Nationwide companies simply aren't interested in selling the panels to make $5 when they know they can get you to pay up an extra $350 on everything they sell to you. They are still thinking small scale about individual sized systems rather than putting 2-3Kw on each and every roof in OZ!
Supermarkets are in the region of 3% margins as they sell on huge volumes. If we had a greater volume of panels coming into the country this wouldn’t be an issue but we simply don’t as I’d want to protect my huge profit margin on panels too!
Let’s take Affordable Solar in New Mexico, USA which is the place where I first started researching all this.
The Xantrex 2.8Kw Inverter is listed as US$1900 which converts to AU$2043 using 0.93 which is what is currently on my Windows 7 desktop. The same item with an AU country code suffixed is just over $3,000 in Aussie, item is only 26kgs but is quite bulky probably 20 on a pallet same as panels, again lets add the $10 freight costs as the pallet would be same weight as panels. Not quite 50% but not far from it.12./ Yes, One would need to find installers willing to do the work, but obviously they don’t have to front the money for the panels and hold them in stock for a couple of months only a couple of grand for the inverter the little brackets and cables and stuff. They would charge the same installation fee but without the hassle of having to hold $200,000 worth of panels as they would already be on site.
13./ Actually your money is already going overseas you just don’t want to think it is. Take your Plasma or LCD TV. That came into the country on a container ship. Your mobile phone wasn’t made here, although some of your whitegoods like fridge or washing machine probably were. Your laptop or PC that you’re reading this forum post on wasn’t made here, most of that came from China or Taiwan.
The idea behind a bulk buying group is to use the economies of scale that are present in doing things en masse. Once again this is about bringing the price of the major components down for everybody so that everybody saves. This will then spark more interest as friends and neighbors will want one too.
Warranty Provisions – All products come with warranties but I don’t foresee any problems as all panels degrade over time anyway.
Damage Risks – There are risks in doing everything but one would need to read the fine print and ask questions of the insurer.
Insurance – Marine Insurance covers damage to goods in transit, works out to be about 0.5% of total container costs
Overseas Buying Trips – You again mentioned this, I don’t plan on doing this I don’t see the need the idea is to keep the costs down not add to them
Overheads – I don’t plan on having any, welcome to the Internet. One can even use Skype to make video calls for free!
Staff Costs – I don't intend on having a staff as we would just be bringing in the panels not installing them that needs a BSCE qualified installer and a sparky.I have already approached the larger installers and was given a rough discount price of about $1000 if you get 50+. They don’t have any interest in large scale price drops or passing along those discounts or they would have done it already. One could investigate the Tendering process but then you’d be paying retail pricing and asking them to cut back where they don’t want or need to cut back.
If there is an installer in Adelaide willing to join in (even the concept) please contact me privately off forum.
Posted Friday 16 Apr 2010 @ 10:55:58 am from IP # -
GBD
MemberCNCandy - I'll try to ignore the tone of your reply and reference to doing my research via www searches?
Any chance that I could have had some personal experiences to base my comments on?
I don't believe the local margins are anything like you think they are - but I may be wrong - figures I've seen don't indicate that it is that high.
I understand your approach above and wish you well in your new importing project, as you are new to the building industry (your earlier posts on this forum) - just be very careful with others money as well as your own and the management of the project.
My posts in this thread are simply aimed at making sure that anyone involved is also aware of the potential risks of an overseas purchase or for that matter a local "buying group" - which can have lots of pitfalls and benefits.
It might go swimmingly without a hiccup or it could go pear shape or anywhere in between.
So long as everyone is aware of the risks and is happy to potentially :
Incur extra costs if / when they occur
Loose some/all of their money
Have to live with warranty issues
Have installation issues because they never realised their house wasn't suitable for a PV system - roof couldn't hold it, switchboard unsuitable etc etc, then all well and good.
There is no such thing as a free lunch and the same applies to half price anything.
All I ask is that everyone goes in with their eyes fully open and is fully aware of the risks and possible delays.
Everyone has different levels of risk that they are comfortable with and being involved with the purchase and importing of a container load of goods with electronics and the associated logistics and installation project management to go with it has it's own level of risks and benefits that many people are not familiar with.
As for local companies - it seems to me you haven't really researched that avenue very far yet.
Rather than the lure of a half price system and it's associsted risks - I'd get your group together - get your specs together - then go to them with a formal request for quotation based on the groups volume needs.
Sure the pricing won't be as low as importing your own - but neither is the level of risk to the buying group.
Posted Friday 23 Apr 2010 @ 12:06:30 am from IP # -
alfresco24
MemberGBD it sounds like the deal CNCandy is involved with has all the risks identified, measured and covered. They have no more exposure than any other commercial importer has buying from a reputable source off-shore every day of the week.
The budget for something like this is easy to put together and apart from a couple of small variables the margin of savings remains huge.That's not to say that perhps you could find a price locally 'off the shelf' negotiated say within 30% of CNCandy's installed price, but that's a heafty premium to pay for something you get anyway from all the warranties and contractor obligations. Alternatively, peace of mind for some people has a high value and they're happy to pay for it. Ce La Vi
Posted Friday 23 Apr 2010 @ 3:40:57 am from IP # -
Buzzman
MemberCNCandy and GBD
I suspect both of you are arguing the same thing, just looking at it from different angles.
It's ALWAYS easy in typed 'conversation' to totally miss the emotional content of a post or email. Especially when you can't use emoticons!
:)CNCandy - I'm not at all sure i don't agree with some of what GBD said. I didn;t see anywhere in your posts anything about GST or Customes and Excise - and I suspect there will be costs there - if you haven't already factored them in, then it would be wise to check. If you have, then I must have missed it. Sorry
Also, there will be the issue of "one size fits all" for a tendering process - unless you strictly limit the tender to supply of "XX" type of and "YY" number of panels.
Once you start adding in other components (excepot perhaps grid-tie inverter) the things can get speculative very quickly.
As I said before, and I'm sure I read it in ReNew but can't find the story, the biggest problem is setting a common spec that everyone in the program can agree to.
Or you have to limit it ti a multi-spec, for example: 1.5kW; 2.0kW and 3.0kW systems only, otherwise you run into the same sort of issues that existing importers have, which is getting and keeping in stock a sufficient variety of equipment and parts to enable you to fulfill many different HH requirements.
For example, from my past experience, if you're ordering 100 identical units, you can usually get a decent discount from the supplier. If ordering 25 type A, 25 type B and 50 type C, the discount on each type will be proprtionally less, thus lessen the savings per unit.
This obviously relates to inverters, not panels! As that would be one area you could stipulate a single spec for the total 100 units (or whatever multiple).
But GBD is right in one thing. You will need the money up front from each particpant, or YOU might get left holding the baby. If you can do so compfortably, then fine.
And that means you need a legal, binding contract, so you'll need a lawyer. You'll need hard copy. Filing. File storage.
And what about ATO requirements? If you are setting up a co-op, then how does theATO regard the receipt of monies by you for the future purchase of goods? Is this taxable for GST? I'd be getting a private ruling on that, at least.
And while you've mentioned shipping container costs, what about parcelling out the stock once it arrives? Panels will arrive in "pallet loads" neatly packaged and glad-wrapped, but you will then ned to provide some measn of properly packing those panels into "house lots" for shipping to the individual HH, and woe betide you if any panels get damaged in transit there!! (If you see what I mean....)
So that would indicate to me that you will need indoor warehousing with packing space and staff to do the unwrapping re-packing, then a local freight company to do the deliveries.
Two issues there. Interstate and intrastate. Unless you limit buy-ins to a local region (say, Sydney Metro) then your scheme could have potential participants as far flung as Perth, Melbourne and Cairns - and all points in between.
One freight company alone probably cannot handle that, as you need local delivery, regional delivery and interstate delivery. An automotive accessories wholesaler for whom I worked had this issue. Local couriers will deliver to domestic addresses (sometimes) but not all. Freight companies won't deliver to any non-business address.
So I'd be lloking hard at that aspect as well, as it can prove a major hidden cost, especially for things which are fragile, bulky but not that heavy - like panels.Inherent in the distribution of the eventual 2-3 container loads is the cost of packaging materials - pallets, packing and wrapping etc. And if palletised, cannot be delivered to domestic address.
Even if you nominate freight forwarding company address in main Metro (or even regional) areas, this may not be convenient for people to pick up from. And if the do, then who warrants any damage done by the person picking up? They will say it was done "in transit" not a materials-handling issue? (ie: your're fault, not theirs).
Good idea. Great plan. If it works. But suspect, like the Brisbane co-op did, you'll find it's all too much hassle in the end for the small amount of savings you personally will be able to achieve.
If you HAVE the resources necessary to meet all those issues (and from your posts, you've done a heck of a lot so far!!) then by all means go ahead.
Otherwise, it might be an idea to talk to a charity who might be willing to take over the running of the scheme. Good luck.
But I remain interested....
Posted Friday 23 Apr 2010 @ 4:02:05 am from IP # -
I am involved with the Local Power bulk buy. Everything possible to reduce risk was done (sometimes at a greater cost), including:
1) getting good advice from professionals in the PV industry
2) buying "tier 1" branded panels
3) buying from local distributors so any warranty issue is dealt with locally rather than internationally
4) insurance
5) experienced installers
etc. etc.It was and is a huge amount of work and keeps people employed full time in planning, admin, logistics, support etc.
Lots of money was saved for members, but PV industry volumes have since skyrocketed, and prices have dropped a lot. So we don't recommend that people follow what we have done unless they want to do a lot of work and have the skills required.
e.g. the Origin solar pricing from their quarterly marketing literature (included with their bills) has certainly changed a lot in < 2 years...
June 2008 to June 2009 1kW $3975 (under old SHCP scheme)
June 2009 1kW $6990 1.5kW $8290 (under new Solar Credits)
September 2009 1kW $5990 1.5kW $7490 (Solar Credits)
December 2009 1.5kW $5990 (Solar Credits)
March 2010 1.5kW $4990 (Solar Credits)
April 2010 (Origin website ) 1.5kW $2990 (Solar Credits)Obviously I'm a big fan of "tier 1" panel suppliers like sharp, kyocera, sunpower, BP etc. who have a long track record in manufacturing and likely to be around in 25 years, just in case...
On another related note with Origin/Sharp reaching $2990, I fear that "free" 1.5kW systems based on unbranded chinese panels will soon be available which will destroy the REC market like old "free" 1kW systems did to the SHCP program.
Posted Saturday 24 Apr 2010 @ 10:50:02 pm from IP # -
Buzzman
MemberRob F
Just out of curiousity, and in the interests of wider knowledge, what DID the actual fitted price work out to under the Local Power scheme?
Say for a 1.0kW or a 1.5kW??
Did anyone get larger? ANd if so, what did they cost?
Would be good to compare, especially for CNCandy's perspective.Posted Sunday 25 Apr 2010 @ 5:20:38 am from IP # -
The pricing I am about to quote is pretty much irrelevant to now as it's from 2 years ago when we had our first buying group (BG#1). The PV landscape/pricing in Australia has completely changed. see p12 of this recent presentation we gave to see how prices have dropped http://localpower.net.au/pdf/hatch.pdf
In early 2008 1kW fully installed (after PVRP/SHCP) in early 2008 was around $1500 fully installed (sharp panels). At the time Origin was offering 1kW (sharp panels) at just under $4000. A significant number of people opted for larger systems (this was before means testing).
The current pricing for the group (BG#4) we closed in March (including a REC calculator) you can read the gory details here
http://localpower.net.au/buyinggroup.htm
http://localpower.net.au/calculator.htmOur smallest system is now 1.5kW and a large number (more than half) of people opt for 2, 3, 4 & 6kW
The final paragraph from the ReNew article states what we think of doing a complete bulk buy from scratch (Model 3) now
"In hindsight, it would have been much less work and possibly risk if we chose Model 2, which is probably what we would recommend to other community groups. Nowadays, with many commercial companies running community based clustering, Model 1 is also viable to someone who can find nine other friends in their suburb wanting solar electricity."
Model 1 Negotiate a bulk installation with a supplier or installation business who would project manage the entire installation including rebate paperwork.
Model 2 Negotiate a bulk installation with a supplier or installation business who would project manage the entire installation, but do the rebate paperwork ourselves.
Model 3 Negotiate a bulk buy of components and project manage the installation process and rebate paperwork ourselves, contracting the PV installers and electricians to install the systems.
Posted Sunday 25 Apr 2010 @ 9:41:26 pm from IP # -
Alfreso, I was replying to his what I felt was a completely negative post to my ideas for a bulk buy of panels for which I've done all the research I can do. I've also posted this info openly for all to peruse and not kept this to myself. I suspect that he is from one of the "Big Boys" about to throw the word S C A M into the thread. I agree that this is no different to anybody else importing anything into the country which is what the "Big Boys" actually do as that is where the biggest saving is to be made, to which they then pocket. Even the nice new Samsung LED TV's come into the country on a container ship!
GBD, The whole concept/idea which I think you missed is about the home owner (YOU) pocketing the savings that the installer takes as a huge profit. Its like going into a shop and offering to pay them twice the sticker price for an item. Yeah there is no half price item because you simply want to keep paying double what you should.
We *should* be getting it as a similar item as they do in the USA where larger systems are the norm not just 6 panels but a couple of dozen. Solar Credits does make 1.5Kw a better buying point. We have so much sun in this country its not funny but opinions like yours decide that its far to difficult to put up loads of panels.
Buzzman, Customs was less than $1000 from memory but only payable if they open your container which is something I neglected to mention, overall its less than $2 a panel, added to the $2 for insurance added to the $10 for the freight. Overall its making the price cheaper for everybody, which is the concept GBD failed to grasp.
Also the idea is to only offer it in Adelaide as that is where I have access to offload a 40' Container via side loader, and forklift facilities. This removes the need to deliver interstate and all that unnecessary hassle. A container could also be brought into other states for roughly the same price, the difference is in port fees and delivery from ship to destination, which again needs both warehouse & forklift!
GST is covered and needs to be paid in advance ( see 5./ ) but not sure if a GST credit would apply as only the end user pays the GST everybody else gets it as a GST credit from the tier above in the supply chain. Example is that I pay GST to my IT supplier, where I (MYOB) apply a GST credit, creating a "Dealer Ex" price, I then apply a profit %, then have to add GST before its sold, that bit mr ATO gets in my BAS payment.
I completely agree with your tendering comments as the idea is getting the same panels as you get from another installer but you pay half price, you then get your installer to bring the inverter the racking, the OH&S stuff, all that he doesn't bring is the panels, as that's a saving you've made. He just signs off on your Solar Credits Rebate once the system is born and REC's are created.
As for Freight companies, try using AAE as they are also owned by Qantas who conveniently have planes going all over the place and more importantly are owned by Australia Post who also own ...shhhh Star Track Express for road. No issues with access to your mailbox there as they own them too, but they do need signatures unless you rid them of that obligation, no issues with delivering to a residence as I've had a 55Kg Laser Printer come in my Front door!
Panels are about 500 odd Kg's per pallet!
Marine Insurance covers goods in the container until (I assume?) they arrive at the delivery destination via side loader semi trailer. You can also buy Goods in Transit insurance to cover locally delivered items.
A $350 per panel saving isn't exactly a small price saving, on a 2Kw that's $3500 which isn't exactly pocket change.
And oh yes the research continues and also remember I haven't kept all this info to myself I've sort these pricing on behalf of everybody. I'm not just doing this for me I'm doing this for everyone including CBD even though he doesn't realize it. If one can convince a complete skeptic of the idea then it shouldn't be too hard to get others in on the concepts and ideas as well.
I've also had queries from all over the place, some in Perth, Brisy and in Melb so your not the only one interested, only one completely against even the idea of it so far.
Posted Monday 26 Apr 2010 @ 11:29:49 am from IP # -
GBD
MemberCNCandy -
FYI - I'm not in the solar industry and if your re read my previous posts - I am not against your ideas - if you've read it that way then that's your interpretation.
Sometimes we get carried up in the excitment of the project and it's potential savings and loose sight of the minor details. Not saying you've done this but let's say I'm just being a reality check for you.
And if you re-read RobF's post immediatly above (which I've quoted below) you will see that he would probably do as I have suggested if he did it all again.
"In hindsight, it would have been much less work and possibly risk if we chose Model 2, which is probably what we would recommend to other community groups. Nowadays, with many commercial companies running community based clustering, Model 1 is also viable to someone who can find nine other friends in their suburb wanting solar electricity."
Model 1 Negotiate a bulk installation with a supplier or installation business who would project manage the entire installation including rebate paperwork.
Model 2 Negotiate a bulk installation with a supplier or installation business who would project manage the entire installation, but do the rebate paperwork ourselves.
Model 3 Negotiate a bulk buy of components and project manage the installation process and rebate paperwork ourselves, contracting the PV installers and electricians to install the systems.
I'll be a devils advocate.
If you deliver each pack to each persons home and they stroe it at home and the installation takes a couple extra weeks, or it's damaged in local transit - or they need to move their cells etc, and damage one - or the installer damages it - how do you determine which party damaged it and who would chase the warranty down or wear the damage costs.Have fun.
I'm not against your plan.
Just making sure that you (and others) know what you are getting in for.
in an Above post Rob F mentions $3k for a 1.5kw system.
How much is your 1.5kw imported system landed + delivery costs etc ready to install?
Posted Tuesday 27 Apr 2010 @ 9:45:57 am from IP # -
Tacker
MemberCNCandy - not sure why you are getting so defensive and been so agressive, GBD is just trying to give some advise on the pitfalls of importing; which as stated he might have some experience in.
Good on you for having a go at it, hope it works out for you.
BTW 50% margin for retail is not far off for any imported product as I understand. I am sure they are not making that much of a killing, after marketing, storage, wages etc etc.Posted Tuesday 27 Apr 2010 @ 11:43:27 am from IP # -
Inspector
MemberI think the reason the system/component price is still high is because there is a govt. grant behind it. The insulation scheme was a perfect example - I insulated my 3br home (approx 100sqm ceiling) with the old scheme and it cost me less than $600 before rebates. Insulation installers were rorting the system ridiculously, quoting the maximum $1600 for any job (from a piddly 2br unit to a McMansion). Any unscrupulous or greedy person will milk anything for what they can, and the same principle applies with solar (and anything else the govt. throws money at). The solar companies charge double the price for panels because they can get away with it.
Posted Tuesday 27 Apr 2010 @ 12:22:24 pm from IP # -
alfresco24
MemberTracker, the margin that big retailers make on a system may not be completely obscene, but it's still a big, big chunk of money, at least $1000 clear on a small system. I know a large long term solar retailer and they love the high ARPU, profitability and stock turns this industry is giving them. Few 'normal' retailers make anywhere near that kind of margin and clip on REC's, and I dont for one minute think most of these people are selling solar for nothing more than the profit opportunity.
Regardless, it's pleasing to see the recovery in REC price.CNCandy - Did you get advice how best to minimise GST when importing as a group? ie paying GST on landed cost and not on the value added final distribution price.
Posted Tuesday 27 Apr 2010 @ 1:35:18 pm from IP # -
GBD & Tacker, That is exactly what I've been suggesting doing from my very first post some 5 months ago. Rob calls this the Model 3 where you source your own components then find an installer to plug it all in and sign off on it!
I didn't see any positive suggestions apart from that of warranties which I addressed in any posts or alternate ideas on how you guys might do something like this?Also the plan is not about delivering a complete system just a HUGE saving on the major components those being the PV panels and maybe inverter too. Roughly $3850 savings on an 11panels aka 2Kw, more if you include an inverter!
Assuming you got everything the same as the deal above that is MINUS $1000 on that deal... So you've saved enough to get another 1Kw (5 panels) on top of that $3k deal!
Model 1 - seems to give a discount of a few of hundred bucks, some places want to hang a sign on your fence or in your front window. Some places give ATA member discounts as well!
Model 2 - would be the $1000-$1500 to get a couple of dozen friends into a small group.
Model 3 - a source your own components model is where the biggest savings can be made and you should be able to see that this would be my choice model from my initial postings in this thread. The savings here would be in the region of $4000+Installer companies don't really seem to want to give out their suppliers and I'm only aware of one wholesaler, RFI, for which you need a trade account. Eco Kinetics who I found the other day do bundle everything together as a kit!
Alfresco, Exactly how do you minimize GST apart from the inbuilt GST credit system.
In this case it would get charged on everything but it would happen on the dock rather than at a wholesaler. One then gets a credit back as it enters "inventory" for lack of a better term, then one "sells/delivers" it and it incurs the GST for being sold. The idea is not to make a profit at all which keeps the cost as low as possible and negates any additional GST.
Lets say the panel is $440 in the container, take off the $40 credit and take it out the container @ $400, sell it @ $440, no payments necessary. I foresee nothing other than paperwork (BAS Return) having to be done if everything can be factored in in the initial costing!
Thanks for the positive suggestion really nice to see that, any chance you can drop me a line?
Posted Tuesday 27 Apr 2010 @ 6:53:52 pm from IP # -
Buzzman
MemberCNCandy
I take your point about the 'customs' charge, but I guess what I was getting at is: are there any excise charges? Most imports into the country cop some sort of fee, based on a percentage of the value plus GST.I once imported some model cars from Japan and had to collect them from Austrlia Post's customes warehouse in Sydney and pay the 'duty' on them, which was (from memory) 10% of the value of the item + the GST on the item.
I'm not suggesting there is a such a duty payable on elctronics or solar components, but I'd certainly be asking the question if you haven't already.....sneaky hidden govt charges department....
As to your handling everything in a reasoably local (ie: Adelaide) area, minimises distribution/delivery costs, but I concur with GBD about the problems of "ownership of responsibility".
T "manage that risk" better (ie: keep the risk away from you personally) I'd do something like get the panels individually checked and plugged in and tested once they are offloaded from the container, and BEFORE they are shipped to a "member" of the scheme or handed over to the BCSE contractor for installation.
That way, any faults, flaws, damage or breakages that YOU discover, will be recoverable from the shipper or o/s supplier. What you then hand on to either the local courier co.; the 'member' or the Contractor, becomes THEIR responsibility, and can't bounce back on you.
"Risk Management" is not simply a chapter heading in the "Small Business 1001 Manual". if you don't factor in ALL the risks, one of them might coma back and nip you on the arse - or in the wallet!!
We're not trying to be "negative" about the concept - just doing what all good, caring, well-meaning humans should do - try to help someone who might be about to fall over and/or get hurt.
So if you can demonstrate to us, and anyone else, that you have factored in sufficient "crutches", "failsafes", OHS and other mechanisms necessary to ensure a properly "risk managed" supply train, then I for one applaud what you are trying to do.
If I won Lotto tomorrow and could afford to carry the upfront costs, I'd probably try to do the same.
But that's just the kind of good-natured, humane, caring, sharing, sensitive-New-Aged guy that I am!
Posted Wednesday 28 Apr 2010 @ 9:39:33 am from IP # -
AQIS unloading ONLY applies if they decide your container looks ripe and juicy and decide yours is the one to nab, costs I have are $1270, which works out at about $2.50 a panel.
Customs clearance was included in the freight quote as was transit onto ship (CIF) as was metro Adelaide and everywhere else - though some ports had a higher delivery fee.
There's no added duty % on panels I asked that too, yes GST applies on (FCL) and its also on Freight and Marine Insurance too.
I'm positive I've covered everything as much as I can on the freight side of things but not on the organisational/administration side such as to incorporate as a non profit body that sort of thing, banking and so forth.
Still its a work in progress...
Posted Wednesday 28 Apr 2010 @ 10:45:00 pm from IP # -
mountainman
Member"une 2008 to June 2009 1kW $3975 (under old SHCP scheme)
June 2009 1kW $6990 1.5kW $8290 (under new Solar Credits)
September 2009 1kW $5990 1.5kW $7490 (Solar Credits)
December 2009 1.5kW $5990 (Solar Credits)
March 2010 1.5kW $4990 (Solar Credits)
April 2010 (Origin website ) 1.5kW $2990 (Solar Credits)Obviously I'm a big fan of "tier 1" panel suppliers like sharp, kyocera, sunpower, BP etc. who have a long track record in manufacturing and likely to be around in 25 years, just in case...
On another related note with Origin/Sharp reaching $2990, I fear that "free" 1.5kW systems based on unbranded chinese panels will soon be available which will destroy the REC market like old "free" 1kW systems did to the SHCP program"
Prices are definitely dropping but not a bad thing.......BP panels have effectively been chinese for years...The chinese brands have to be accredited by CEC and most have 25yr performance warranty as standard...the same as all the "tier 1" companies. The fact is China now dominates world production...something we have to accept. There are some dodgy ones out there but mainly they are decent quality and it is up to people to check the accreditation status of the panels before installing....(just like you would check the warranty and bona fides of a microwave or tv.....).
Panels are not allowed to be "unbranded" under the Australian scheme. They must ALL pass accreditation.
Posted Tuesday 1 Jun 2010 @ 3:14:58 am from IP # -
matas
MemberIts probably too late now,
but I am another, who would really like to take part in a group buy.
I am interested in 3 kW of panels and inverter.
I live in Sydney.
I have contacted several Chinese suppliers in the past, and they seem quite happy to supply panels for under US$2 per watt, even for less than container loads.Posted Monday 5 Jul 2010 @ 11:01:39 am from IP # -
There were several interested parties in both Melb & Sydney that were looking to form small buying groups, most already had done their research into panels but hadn't looked into freight issues as far as I did...
Contact me off thread and I will dig up some details.
Also it might be an idea to hold onto your REC's if you have that opportunity until next year and then get $40 a pop for them under the SRET rather than the going rate of about $35 - its about $700 odd difference!
Posted Monday 5 Jul 2010 @ 12:29:21 pm from IP # -
franks
Memberhttp://www.aquatooth.com/contact.html
Sell PV and Renew Components, check them out, they have a OZ phone number and will accept funds with a Westpac OZ bank account.Posted Tuesday 6 Jul 2010 @ 1:07:25 am from IP # -
matas
MemberOK, will do.
As far as the importing process goes, when people emphasise all the complexities and difficulties, I think - are they just trying to protect their turf, and justify their exhorbitant profit margins ?
My sister imported less than a container load, of glassware from China, and just used a shipping agent in Sydney. It didn't add much to the cost and there were no hassles. She didn't even have to pick them up, from the terminal.Posted Tuesday 6 Jul 2010 @ 4:42:42 am from IP # -
IAEA
MemberLance Turner writes...
"I currently have a pair of the 80 watters on test at my place, build quality looks good, performance testing is ongoing,......."
Lance,
You wrote this 8 months ago and was wondering how those 80 watters are performing now? Have you kept detailed records on production figs.? Care to offer your thoughts against these Chinese branded PV panels?
At 80W, are they polys or monos?
IAEA
Posted Wednesday 14 Jul 2010 @ 7:41:34 am from IP #
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