eslideit,
I'm in Brisbane with the same sized system. If you can go for the 40 tube model, it will compensate you for the extra person and more hot water use in winter due to the climate. A 40 tube system would mean very minimal boost required.
Apricus Or Hills Evacuated Tube Solar HW System?
(341 posts) (92 voices)-
PKKX
MemberHi I am in Sydney and am also looking into the Apricus but am unsure of the tank and tubes that I would need. I have a family of 2 adults and 3 teenage kids.
I am also waiting for the installation of a 4KW solar system so I will be going to the new PowerSmart metering and billing which has a much higher peak and shoulder rate compared to my old 450ltr off peak hot water system so it would be a concern if we get a solar system that will need to boost in the peak or shoulder times (especially if we have family stay sometimes for weeks on end)and potentially rendering all the savings useless.
Any help would be greatly appreaciated.
Also I was concerned that the pump and controller has only got a 2 year warrenty does this meen that you could potentially be replacing them every two years? why is there such a short warrenty period?
Posted Tuesday 27 Oct 2009 @ 12:56:25 am from IP # -
Sunshine
MemberPKKX,
For a family of 5 in Sydney, I would recommend going for the largest, 40 tube 315 litre system. You may need to still boost at times, but it would minimise the requirement.
You should be able to install a timer in the meter box for the power feed going to the electric hot water booster. With the timer, you can control when you want the booster to run, hence, you can configure it to only supply power in off peak times.
I have such an arrangement for my pool pump recently installed.
Do Sydney power companies have a controlled power tariff for water heaters and pool pumps? If they do, the power company can arrange connection.
In Brisbane it's called Tariff 33, and it supplies power at a minimum of 18 hours a day, at a 30-40% discount to the normal tariff.
Obviously if the warranty period is shorter, it must point to a weak link.
However, as the pump has moving parts, generally anything with moving parts has a shorter warranty period.
My Hills system is now 12 months old, touch wood, I haven't had any issues with anything.Posted Tuesday 27 Oct 2009 @ 4:16:04 am from IP # -
dymonite69
MemberPKKX,
Apricus actually provides a collector sizing calculator on their website:
http://www.apricus.com/html/solar_collector_size.htm
Usual hot water needs are around 60L/person/day
Posted Tuesday 27 Oct 2009 @ 4:42:12 am from IP # -
PKKX
MemberThanks Guys for your help and I must say I recieved my quote for the 315ltr Apricus and am shocked at the price before rebates and RECS it comes in at 6150, Does this sound right or should I be getting a few other quotes or even investigate further some other options like the Quantum heat pump type systems.
Posted Saturday 31 Oct 2009 @ 10:48:07 am from IP # -
indidi
MemberHI I hope this helps. Two days ago I got a quote for an Apricus system for Tasmania where everything is usually much more expensive due to shipping costs.
Apricus Solar Collector with Everlast Stainless Steel Hot Water Cylinder
10 tubes,250 litre,$3,160
22 tubes,250 litre,$3,940
30 tubes,250 litre,$4,315
30 tubes,315 litre,$4,500
40 tubes, 315 litre,$5,315Roof Frames (only needed if your roof does not have good pitch or aspect)
10 tubes, $200
22 tubes & 30 tubes $300Optional Upgrades
Controller Upgrade to Solastat 2 (includes Solastat Relay) $150
Caleffi Steam Relief Vent (if away for long periods, shacks etc) $95Posted Saturday 31 Oct 2009 @ 10:06:10 pm from IP # -
Sunshine
MemberPKKX,
Sounds a bit high to me, but mine was $4809 installed after all rebates,add RECS, Hills $400 rebate (last Oct they had a sale) and local council rebate of $400, it probably would have ended up at $6000 or so..indidi,
Are these installed prices or parts only?Posted Saturday 31 Oct 2009 @ 10:46:35 pm from IP # -
indidi
MemberHi Sunshine
these are price of parts only. We are building so the install will be incorporated into the plumbing/electric budget. They also said that you can install most of the system yourself and they have what appear to be really helpful instructions.Posted Sunday 1 Nov 2009 @ 1:50:48 am from IP # -
Hi indidi
From I know, the final price down to customers would be much lower. There are 3 sections in rebates -- Federal, State, and REC (renewable energy certificate). So pretty much for all systems on the market, the Federal and State rebates are quite similar. However, Apricus really comes ahead in REC rebate.REC rebate calculates in a way that each system score certain REC points and each point is worth a price depending on the market. Right now all other brands have a varying market price at around $20, however Apricus has a locked in agreement with a company called Wellbeinggreen for $36 each point. For example a 30 tube, 315L system with Glass lined tanks score 35 points and that gives you $1260 rebate for REC part alone.
So at end of the day, you get a lot more cash back on Apricus compared to other brands. But you have to be quick though as this Apricus deal will change in next month.
Posted Tuesday 3 Nov 2009 @ 8:36:51 am from IP # -
dymonite69
MemberThis is an interesting market distortion. Does Wellbeinggreen purchase RECS for this price from anyone else? Why only Apricus? Is this speculative trading or some form of anti-competition behaviour? BTW Customers are allowed to trade their own RECS privately rather than having their supplier do it on there behalf - it's just more paperwork.
There was some article on the ATA suggesting that selling your RECS back into the open market is a disincentive for utilities to invest in GreenPower. But utilties are forced to meet an MRET and subsidise our home green energy systems. In this way they are indirectly increasing the 'green' plant in the country.
Posted Tuesday 3 Nov 2009 @ 9:08:02 am from IP # -
Louise
MemberCheck 'no-name' this system out - my neighbour installed one of these himself, routed through his existing electric system which is turned off and provides storage only unless he has a houseful. He's stoked with it. All the contacts are there for enquiries & it is warrantied.
Posted Wednesday 4 Nov 2009 @ 10:06:24 pm from IP # -
Sunshine
MemberLooks like the first evacuated tube system without the need for a split tank plus stainless which is good.
But as this is a direct import, with no local distributor that I can see, if the person selling it is uncontactable you may have no warranty with the product.
But being stainless steel, with no electronics and pumps, it should be relatively reliable in design.
The company's website shown on the Ebay listing doesn't have the model or brand name shown which is a bit of a worry.Posted Wednesday 4 Nov 2009 @ 10:20:39 pm from IP # -
micko
MemberLouise - be very careful about buying a collector that is not Australian Standards certified. You have no guarantee of the quality or that it even meets potable water standards. Furthermore the warranty is only as good as the company that stands behind it. This is a small company, maybe one person operation who is importing some stuff from China and just selling to anybody they can - who knows where they will be in a couple of years if you have a warranty issue.
Also you should not be installing anything yourself - must be a qualified plumber and electrician. If anything happens and causes damage to your property I doubt if your insurance company would cover it.
That system uses a copper coil heat exchanger in the tank, the tank itself is not under pressure. You will find that given the small surface area of that coil the hot water delivery will not be that great as the temperature in the tank drops so too will your hot water supply. I know this because I developed this system about 5 years ago, but didn't continue with it due to inherent issues with consistent water supply - many companies, including this one then copied the design.
Also over time you may have issues with the seals around the tubes leaking water onto the roof. The valve in the header tank can easily fail due to scale formation.Posted Wednesday 4 Nov 2009 @ 11:52:47 pm from IP # -
micko
MemberApricus locked in the RECs with Wellbeinggreen as a business decision to enable more stable RECs values. If the values went up they would still be locked in at $36, so it is the same as hedging currencies, locking in at a fixed rate for a period of time. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. In this case with the RECs value dropping it has been good for Apricus. Certainly not anti-competitive trading and is perfectly legal.
Posted Wednesday 4 Nov 2009 @ 11:56:17 pm from IP # -
franks
MemberTrying to work out the real cost of any SolarHWS/PV, is like a bowl of Spagetti,
as soon it involves something with Renew,Green,rebates and RECS its all smoke and mirrors.
why cant it just be, what does it cost and how much to install ?, forget rebates RECS ect
the scheme of rebates and RECS is just featherbedding and propping installers and retailers of SolarHWS and PVstake a look at a Solar booster kit prices for existing electric HWS service on eBay of course no RECS or rebates but $1200 for 2 collectors, pump/controller , connection manifold, add $200 for sundrys makes a cheap solar hot water service and you get to keep the money you save.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230394426421&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
Posted Wednesday 4 Nov 2009 @ 11:57:40 pm from IP # -
Franks,
From my personal experience, I would definitely agree with Micko.
I had once solar heater installed on my roof in a similar situation. However, the heater has so many issues and requires attention all the times.
In addition, by having the tank on roof, you will have to wait for a long time till you actual receive hot water from the tap by running the cold water in between the tank outlet and tap.
Don't forget the ultimate goal of using solar system to save electricity usage. With such inefficient system, you won't make much saving through the year, not talking about the upkeeping costs.
Some good branded systems may cost you more up front. By with the extra electricity bill saved, they will pay themselves back this price difference over the warranty times.
After all, it is not a good idea to have the dodgy ebay system, in terms of both long term money saving and peace of minds.
regards
Posted Thursday 5 Nov 2009 @ 1:09:55 am from IP # -
Hi Louise. See another Aus Company (i think), that have a ThermoSiphon Evacuated Tube system.
http://www.runonsun.com.au
Appears to have Aus & NZ certification. Looks OK.Posted Thursday 5 Nov 2009 @ 1:26:56 am from IP # -
micko
MemberLouise,
The "Runonsun" system uses heat pipe plugged into ports which extend into the stainless steel mains pressure storage tank. Again this is a product which I have worked with but issues occurred with leaking between the brass thread and the stainless steel over time due to the high temps at that area. So make sure that the supplier understands this issues and has solved that.
Another MAJOR issue is the use of 304L grade stainless steel for the tank rather than 316 (marine grade). Areas with poor water quality will result in rapid corrosion and leaking of that tank. If a tank is going to be made using stainless steel for mains pressure potable water use it should be 316 or higher grade. The welds also need to be properly passivated (pickled) to ensure the heated metal has regained its chromium oxide protective layer. If that has NOT been completed the tank may rust quite quickly along the weld seams.
I would want to know a lot more about the production process of that tank before I would recommend it to anybody.
To learn more about stainless steel here are a few links:
http://www.hghouston.com/ssdata.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steelPosted Saturday 7 Nov 2009 @ 5:46:49 am from IP # -
hillslope
MemberHi folks,
time to contribute. We installed a 30 tube 315 Litre stainless tank Apricus system about 3 years ago. Timed it perfectly to miss all the rebates (rats). Located in Victoria, high altitude (600m) and lots of frost and cold winters - and shade from trees after about 4 pm. Family of 4.
We have had to switch the electric boost on for around 1-2 weeks in total over these winters - rest of the year boost is off at the circuit board. Friends went for a Hills system same size about the same time, and have had to have something replaced - guessing the steam vent.
The controller is in a handy visible spot to see when pump is working or not and have been monitoring use, pumping times and boost need. So I know that on a sunny morning with 0 deg frost, system is heating water by 8 am - as soon as the sun hits the tubes. If the day stays sunny, even at max of 10-12 deg C temperature we have enough hot water to not need boost, even with 1 load of washing for the day and evening showers (3 girls, so showers are NOT quick). A full day of sun at 13 deg or more will give us just enough hot water for 2 days - ie if day 2 is cloudy, last shower day 2 is touch and go.
Other friends with flat panel systems do not get enough solar water in winter - even new ones. At a rough guess, the evacuated tubes- supposedly 40-45% more efficient than flat panel- might be around 80-90% more efficient in winter with negligible heat loss! Haven't seen proper analysis so this would be interesting to confirm.
In summer with plenty of sun and heat, a coil of poly pipe on the roof will provide plenty of hot water (basically what most pool heaters are), so winter is the time the systems show their true value - and keep saving money.
Just wish we had got the rebate - cos RECs were worth about $20 each then too. Would have been able to afford the Gas boost as well.
The Hills salesman told me Apricus was rubbish - which annoyed me enough to do some research - and the telling thing for me was Apricus history in N America and Europe, and owning the factory. Cheaper price also helped confirm it in the end.
Posted Wednesday 11 Nov 2009 @ 12:43:16 am from IP # -
UNEVANO
MemberHello everyone,
We installed an Apricus 30 tube, 315l SS storage tank with Gas (LPG) boost exactly 1 month ago. I spent 5 - 6 weeks researching all the different systems available, in which time the Fed Gov rebate was reduced, but hey stiff! A number of things happened even after all the research, I had at the time a 4yo Bosch 16l LPG instantaneous HWS which I had sold (post installation of SHWS) to a friend of a friend etc, for a 'weekender'. In my defence, the rebates and other things were a bonus, as the constant increase in price of domestic LPG and no 3phase power put me in a no win postion for the cost of providing our hot water. What I did not watch for on the contract, was the handwritten VEECs, a whole $90 from the Vic Gov to destroy a current working model HWS which I was going to sell for $450, I was not happy, especially when you consider that a few years ago before the rebates were known of, the same SHWS was about the price they are now after rebate, REC's & VEEC's, so where has the extra money gone? Maybe a bit like the Auto LPG industry when the FED Gov offered $2000 rebate, the Installation cost went up by about $1990.
Anyway we are very happy with the system, a few minor niggles with the installation and we are very happy with the amount of hot water we now have and will monitor the LPG usage. If Mike from Apricus is still monitoring this site, could you please answer this question, I don't know if it has happened previously, but yesterday around 2pm I just happened to notice the display on the controller showed 55d which I later read as SSd. I then checked the temp in the collector - 147C and the temp in the inlet of the storage tank-66C and no pump operation, after a number of attempts I got the pump to start and improve the temp in the storage tank. This is actuaqlly how I found this site as I had contacted the Installers and was waiting for a response, I decided to do an Internet search and found this site. I must be honest to say I have not read much of the controller instructions, it had all been fine up to now, no need and I have noticed on other postings about a max of 70C, but this seeems to be a waste of free energy if the water can be made hotter, as all the installations are required to have a temperature safety valve which would mean less hot water used.
Other than this, I am very happy with the Apricus system and anyone thinking of buying any SHWS do your own research and decide on what one you want first, before you get installation quotes. I was amazed at the amount of bullshit some sales people were sprouting and if I had not done my own evaluating, I could have easily been misled.
Posted Monday 16 Nov 2009 @ 8:15:03 am from IP # -
Sunshine
MemberUNEVANO,
I have a Hills 30 tube 315 litre system and I read somewhere that it keeps heating until 95 degrees is reached in the tank, then pump shuts down and any excess water (max 1.7 litres) is vented through the manifold on the roof.
I agree, it seems a waste if it shuts down at 70 degrees, maybe the Apricus needs to shutdown at 70 degrees as it doesn't have the vent on the manifold?
Maybe one for Micko to answer/clarify?
My system has been in for 13 months and have never used electric boost. Family of 3 in Brisbane.
I agree with your comment, it's all about how good they perform in winter, and in marginal overcast/rainy weather, as in summer anything can heat water!Posted Monday 16 Nov 2009 @ 12:31:22 pm from IP # -
UNEVANO
MemberSunshine,
As Micko stated in his first post. the Apricus does not need a vent or pressure relief as the extra pressure build up is vented by the pressure relief on the storage tank. Also being mains pressure and the pressure build up in the system raises the boiling point 4C for every kg of pressure, same as a car radiator cap typically 6kg cap = 124C boiling point. I have not looked at the pressure relief valve on the tank yet to determine what the maximum temperature could be, but as the Hills and Apricus both use the Everlast storage tank they would be the same. I think the problem lies with the controller and maybe it should be upgraded or I have a dud, it would be interesting to have a response from Micko while I am still waiting for a reply from the Installers, maybe today or is that wishfull thinking?
Posted Monday 16 Nov 2009 @ 10:36:21 pm from IP # -
micko
MemberIn reply to UNEVANO and SUNSHINE:
Sorry for the delay in my reply, I have not checked my RSS reader, been so busy.
1. The operating pressure of a mains storage tank in Australia is generally 850kPa as dictated by the PTRV valve on the side of the tank, and sometimes a "cold water expansion valve" on the cold inlet. At this pressure the boiling temperature is around 175oC. It is not 4oC per kg, more like double that… as 850kPa is 8.5kg/cm2 of pressure, but has a rise of 70oC above normal atmospheric pressure boiling point of 100oC. There are charts online to check the values:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html
Look at the table - 1 bar is pretty close to 100kPa…. so if you look at 8.3bar that is 172oC.
If the collector goes above this then it will form steam.
2. Use of an auto air vent will dump large volume of water in the form of steam which is exactly why Apricus does NOT use them, as this is a massive waste of water and in fact I believe does not meet the "no-load" clause 7.4.3 of AS2712:2007 standard which says that:
"The daily water discharge for a solar water heater under the no-load conditions of Appendix F shall not exceed three times the sum of the volume of water in the collector array (if the array is directly coupled to the tank) plus the thermal expansion volume of the water contents of the tank"
The thermal expansion of the tank is about 1.5% of the contents when heated from cold to about 75oC.
The manifold header contents for a Hills unit is about 1.7L so that would mean the system should not dump more than about 4.5L + 1.5% x 327 = 9.4L/day, for a 315L tank. I would be interested to know if anybody is able to monitor their water meter early morning and again night-time without any other water usage during the day and see actually how much is being dumped. Based on seeing videos of one of those auto air vents puffing away steam all day I would expect it could exceed that, which is an issue, and clearly a waste of precious water.
UNEVANO - when you said it dumps a max of 1.7L, is that what you were told? as that is not correct. As steam is released it will be replaced with new water, so it is a continual cycle while the collector is hot. There is no limit to that process. If the collector hits max temperature by 10am, then for the rest of the day it will be dumping steam, and based on peak energy production of about 1.8kW at those temperatures, and based on the assumption that it requires 0.54kcal of energy to boil 1g of water:
1.8kW x 860 = 1548kcal. 1548/0.54 = 2866grams of water converted to steam. So each hour that could be releasing 2.8L of water in the form of steam!!
I will just point out that there may be some difference in that calculation at 800kPa of pressure… I could not find anything about that online - anybody who knows please add a comments, I will also ask my engineer once he gets in.
3. The SSD (show as 55d) means that the temperature of the collector has exceeded the limit that the sensor can accurately read and so the controller goes into shutdown mode, preventing further operation until the temperature drops below that level and it can start to get an accurate reading again. This does not mean the controller has failed and is something you may often see in the summer - nothing to be concerned about. It is, however, something I am working on with the controller engineers to adjust, as it can cause some confusion.
4. I am actively investigating methods of managing the temperature buildup and expansion of water without having to dump that 1.5% of water each day. The obvious solution is an expansion tank, but finding a suitable one that can work at 850kPa and is potable water rated and cost effective may be a challenge. But certainly I am working hard to ensure that systems don't need to dump a drop of water each day… which is vital in a country where we have such massive water issues.
Hope that helped guys.
Posted Thursday 19 Nov 2009 @ 11:55:17 pm from IP # -
Sunshine
MemberMicko,
The manifold only holds 1.7 litres of water, so it can't possibly release more water than what is stored in it.
As the circulating pump turns off when the tank storage temperature reaches 95 degrees, no new water will be pumped into the manifold, so maximum wastage would be 1.7 litres, no more.
We have a household of three, and total water use for the three of us, is only 155 litres per day (52 litres per person per day), so water waste from the solar system would need to be very low or nothing, as it isn't reflecting in the water usage of the house.
Brisbane is very sunny in winter, quite often cloudy/stormy in summer, so production is going to be limited somewhat by rain and cloud cover in summer, which will limit any overproduction which may occur.UNEVANO,
The Hills system also has the pressure relief valve on the side of the Everlast tank, as well as a valve on the manifold on the roof.
They must have added the valve in the manifold for a reason.Posted Friday 20 Nov 2009 @ 4:03:06 am from IP # -
micko
MemberSunshine - the system is always flooded. When steam is released the system is loosing water and that has to be replaced. Each time the steam is released the system will cool a bit. When it cools below the boiling temp the header will be full of just really hot water again, and you will see this as the steam release will "rest" from time to time. When that happens the header is still all water, but minus the steam that was released, so that is sucked back up from the lines. That can happen without the pump running as water can travel past the pump impeller. So it definitely is able to dump much more than the 1.7L of header volume. I have run systems on my factory roof and put on air vents and had them steaming all day… they have a header volume of 0.7L and dumped more than 10L over the day.
All tanks have a pressure relief valve on the side - the PTRV. They added the auto air vent because they were told it was a good idea by somebody - they did not realise there would be issues with them blocking up with scale or melting. Those valves are not designed to be left on the roof in a direct flow mains pressure system.
In clarification to my earlier post:
The energy required to turn 1kg of water at 170oC and 800kPa to steam is 0.5686kWh. Less as temp increases.
My estimation of 1.8kW failed to fully consider all factors - was not accurate:
Based on a collector temperature of 170oC and ambient of 30oC the delta-t would be 140oC at which point the solar conversion would be about 25% @1000Watt/m2 solar radiation.
So 1000W x 0.25 x 2.82m2 aperture area = 705 Watts at midday. At 2 hours either side of midday then multiple by 1.3 to account for IAM (passive tracking factor), so about 900Watts.
So lets say 0.8kW average (not the 1.8kW I said before - sorry)
0.8 / 0.5686 = 1.4kg of water per hour turned to steam.
So if the collector hit max temp by 10am, 4 hours of strong sunlight would provide about 5.6L of water converted to steam. The standard says header volume x 3 is allowable, which would be 5.1L….. so would be pretty close I think. Maybe I should design a 5L capacity header… I can then legally dump 15L of water a day!
Potential loophole in the standard there it seems. 5.6L plus the tank getting to 95oC would be about 2% expansion of 327L, so total of 12L/day… adds up.
Posted Friday 20 Nov 2009 @ 6:10:06 am from IP # -
micko
MemberUnevano - yes that is correct. 70oC. This is important as if a glass lined tank is used pushing the temps much higher will rapidly degrade the enamel lining. Stainless steel can handle the higher temps better. There is really not great advantage in taking the temps much higher, as you obviously already have plenty of hot water.
327L of 70oC water can provide 600L at 45oC which is showering temperature as it will be tempered down to 50oC by mixing with cold at the tempering valve, and again to 40-45oC at the shower tap.
Posted Friday 20 Nov 2009 @ 6:17:43 am from IP # -
Sunshine
MemberMicko,
The pressure temperature relief valve in the manifold will only open if the pressure in the manifold exceeds what the valve is rated at.
Surely the valve won't be open for hours on end. The Hills guy said it only spits out a bit of water out, like a cup or two.But the Apricus system has a stainless steel tank, so why turn the pump off at 70 degrees?
Sounds like the Hills then would have a much greater yield then, if it can store water at up to 95 degrees then.Posted Friday 20 Nov 2009 @ 6:37:20 am from IP #
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