Good article on how science is treated by the BBC. Pretty much the same everywhere but worth a read.
Comments are good as usual. "Yes, they repeatedly posit one hypothesis, even if supported by years of research, libraries full of papers and the vast majority of people who know what they're talking about, against another supported by little research, few papers and a few oddballs..."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2012/jan/26/1
Greenozi
Member
Very soon human race will invade new territories like Moon and Mars. Somehow they will bring all old habits with them. The question is how could they pollute new planet with Co2 is there is no atmosphere ? How they could burn out carbon if there is no oxygen to burn and no coal mine under? But somehow they will create multi million settlements there later or sooner. I wish we could learn something from our grand kids also not the grand pa's....
Lakes drying up as the rains fail to arrive.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/31/china-freshwater-lake-dries-up
And in Europe what is now called Lake Koroneia, which used to be the 4th largest lake in Greece has dried up.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/feb/22/greece-lake-koroneia-shrinking-salles
dbindoff
Member
An interesting precis of the Hansen article I linked above - the Faustian dilemma becomes more entangling the longer we fail to invest decisively in reducing CO2 emissions;
http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/02/06/beyond-the-carbon-price-a-faustian-bargain/
PS by way of explanation - images I linked previously were hosted by Megaupload and have been seized by the FBI! I am an innocent subscriber to that web storage service, which stored business files for me (and the occasional picture) Hence my linked images are no longer shown. I'll have to find another image hosting service by the look of it.
dbindoff
Member
To flesh out the 'Faustian Dilemma' a little, from page 2 of Hansen's paper we have the picture of the various forcings at work.
Of particular interest are the human-made aerosols and greenhouse gases. The human-made aerosols have a large negative forcing with large error bar, the greenhouse gase have very large positive forcing with small error bar.
The net forcing is trending up, if the negative contribution from human-made aerosols was diminished, the net positive forcing would increase dramatically (even more dramatically than at present)
dbindoff
Member
Another side of the debate - the 'toxic' collusion of mining, super rich and media.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX2kMAfJggU&feature=share
Could a balanced debate eventuate?
Leak exposes how Heartland Institute works to undermine climate science.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/feb/15/leak-exposes-heartland-institute-climate
New book on the 'hockey stick' and attacks against climate science.
"Michael Mann in his new book, The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars, describes the campaign by the fossil fuel industry against his science."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/feb/17/michael-mann-climate-war
Celebrated scientists and development thinkers today warn that civilisation is faced with a perfect storm of ecological and social problems driven by overpopulation, overconsumption and environmentally malign technologies.
"The perpetual growth myth ... promotes the impossible idea that indiscriminate economic growth is the cure for all the world's problems, while it is actually the disease that is at the root cause of our unsustainable global practices", they say.
"The current system is broken," said Watson. "It is driving humanity to a future that is 3-5C warmer than our species has ever known, and is eliminating the ecology that we depend on for our health, wealth and senses of self."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/feb/20/climate-change-overconsumption?intcmp=122
"About time they got exposed too.
It's pretty obvious what they are up to, but nice to see the damning internal documentation hit the street."
A little more perspective here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/21/gleick_admits_to_heartland_hack/
"The perpetual growth myth ... promotes the impossible idea that indiscriminate economic growth is the cure for all the world's problems, while it is actually the disease that is at the root cause of our unsustainable global practices", they say.
Its about time people started looking at the _cause_
So much modern economics, accountancy, business teaching etc. is predicated on growth.
It is a very simple fact that it cannot continue forever. We might be able to postpone the inevitable for a while by growing protein in vats (Soylent Green anyone ? ) but the endgame is inevitable in the absence of change.
It is the cause that needs to be treated not the symptoms.
Lets have more of this thinking.
Bushwalker
Member
gazmo88 said:
"About time they got exposed too.It's pretty obvious what they are up to, but nice to see the damning internal documentation hit the street."
A little more perspective here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/21/gleick_admits_to_heartland_hack/
Well, I can't support his decision to do that, but the end result is we now know what secretly goes on inside a 'think tank' - evil.
Not for profits should be open and transparent in their funding, just like political parties should be.
Heartland is also being outrageously hypocritical. Heartland championed the hacked emails from CRU, still do on their site, yet they bleat like stuck pigs when the same medicine is delivered to them.
I don't see the CRU hacker ever standing up in public and admitting his crime either...
BW
" Not for profits should be open and transparent in their funding, just like political parties should be."
Totally agree, I mean who _are_ all these "think tanks" and who is keeping an eye on them, you need a directory !
Of course transparency should also apply to academia, and its hard to see the behaviour of the uni of East Anglia as anything but unconscionable for instance.
Frankly "both sides" are "at it" and it does none of them any credit IMO
Bushwalker
Member
sun2steam said:
unconscionable? Why, how?
It's just totally unconscionable that the UEA allowed these scientists to exchange private emails on the university's email system. Scientists should not share their private frustrations about dealing with organisations like Heartland on work time and on work email systems.
Totally unconscionable behavior. 
BW
"unconscionable? Why, how?"
Google climategate - if you think that sort of behaviour is acceptable in an academic environment then thats your view. Its not mine.
"It's just totally unconscionable that the UEA allowed these scientists to exchange private emails on the university's email system. Scientists should not share their private frustrations about dealing with organisations like Heartland on work time and on work email systems."
Its not so much using an email system as it is the purpose for which that system is used. A tiny snippet:
----------------------
"We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind," wrote the CRU director Phil Jones. "Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith [Briffa] re AR4? Keith will do likewise," wrote CRU director Jones, in response to one batch of [FOI] requests, he later instructed colleagues.
----------------------
Doesn't sound like somebody committed to transparency does it. Doesn't do much for the credibility of that side of the argument either if it gets out - oops it did.
Now one could go on and on tit for tat with a "we said they said" and only reach the conclusion I mentioned above which is that IMO both "sides" are "at it" .
Meanwhile, the much broader issue to quote rockabye [quoting the Gruniad]:
"The perpetual growth myth ... promotes the impossible idea that indiscriminate economic growth is the cure for all the world's problems, while it is actually the disease that is at the root cause of our unsustainable global practices", they say.
seems to slip by unnoticed.
Maybe its just "too hard" to be addressed.
Anyway, I apologise this is slipping a bit too far off topic
Bushwalker
Member
gazmo, the UEA hack proved nothing, except that the scientists are under a lot of pressure from denialists. The only 'wrong' was that they put FOI requests into the slow queue and basically ignored them. This cannot be compared with the evidence of a 'think tank' secretly funded by vested interests secretly plotting and operating to undermine the acceptance of published and long established science to suit those vested interests.
If you grabbed most people's email spool, you'd find all sorts of personal frustration, threats and intentions to break the law one way or another. It's no crime to say privately that you want to punch someone in the face, or delete evidence, the crime is in actually doing it, and there is no proof of that. We're not in George Orwell territory yet.
I think there is no reaction to the perpetual growth myth, because anyone capable of understanding climate change would also be able to understand there are limits in any system. It's accepted, and it's a monster. The problem is no-one knows where the switch is, or how to throw it.
BW
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