Hi Winentucker, we have a block in Parkerville looking at SIPS too. I see your occupation is earthmover - do you by any chance do site works or have recommendations for one in the Perth hills. PM me if you like.
Structural Insulated Panels(314 posts) (101 voices)
Hi Winentucker, we have a block in Parkerville looking at SIPS too. I see your occupation is earthmover - do you by any chance do site works or have recommendations for one in the Perth hills. PM me if you like.Posted Friday 30 Sep 2011 @ 10:06:30 am from IP #
Guys check out http://www.brenshai.com for updated photos etc of SIP projects around the country, also the the projects currently almost completed in perth were built by the JWH group (one of WA largest builders). the structures used rcontrol sips very successfully, and are for the WA gov housing. Brenshai is in partnership with rcontrol Australasia as well, but based in qld.Posted Saturday 1 Oct 2011 @ 10:43:52 am from IP #
Love to help but our machinery is in the NW as civil contractors to the mining industry.
The more one looks at sips the more intelligent the system seems, and therefore the greater the need to make sure the structural integrity is in place with the manufacturer. To modify a system not necessarily designed for this use, such as coolroom insulated panels without the engineered specificity of external wind pressure for instance, may end up resulting in a building failure not because the idea (sips) failed, but because the wrong panels were used - ie they were designed for a different purpose although they look similar.
Just thinking out loud, but if I'm going to put a couple of hundred thousand dollars into a building I don't want it to fall over coz I cut corners and went with a cheaper or more accessible product.
JeffPosted Monday 3 Oct 2011 @ 1:51:33 pm from IP #
Wanting to build an extension to my home in Perth using SIPS but have just run the concept past my home insurer and they say a building made of SIPS is "not insurable". Amyone had any issues insuring a building built of SIPs?
BronwynPosted Friday 10 Feb 2012 @ 4:10:50 am from IP #
What a load of rubbish. Not only have I built from SIPs, but we have built homes from SIPs - a set of six units for a lodge in Marysville Victoria. Many homes in Canberra and sets of units for the GOVERNMENT in Western Australia. Of course they are insurable. What on earth do they know about SIPs?? They should be easier to insure than other buildings. We are building a commercial building in Kwinana for a chemical clean-up company that is National!! Who may I ask is your insurance company?Posted Saturday 11 Feb 2012 @ 7:21:27 am from IP #
Often visit Canberra. It would be interesting to drive past some of the houses that you have built to see what a real one looks like, can you give a few addresses or PM them to me,
thanksPosted Saturday 18 Feb 2012 @ 7:11:15 am from IP #
While ptd is very assertive, my commercial building (colourbond-100mm EPS-colourbond) has indeed become difficult to insure. In one year the renewal doubled, then the next they refused and the broker could only find one firm to take on EPS.
Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned sound? In my experience, SIP is great for heat insulation, but lousy for sound insulation. It is after all a rigid panel, so if something (truck, aeroplane, rain, bird walking on the roof) vibrates the outer skin, the inner skin vibrates too.Posted Tuesday 13 Mar 2012 @ 12:37:48 pm from IP #
I posted on this forum sometime last year about the cost of SIPS vs double brick construction in Perth. We are building a double storey house with skillion roof on a narrow, flat lot in the metro area. We had the SIPS costed up some time ago and have since made minor design modifications. We've just got in the costing for double brick back and the cost are pretty much on par, with double brick (inclusive of full texture render) being slightly cheaper (5-10k).Posted Tuesday 20 Mar 2012 @ 5:48:43 am from IP #
" We've just got in the costing for double brick back and the cost are pretty much on par, with double brick (inclusive of full texture render) being slightly cheaper (5-10k)."
Whose SIPs ?Posted Tuesday 20 Mar 2012 @ 7:15:10 am from IP #
it's been quiet here - I just wonder how everybody is doing. Any news/progress reports on SIP projects?
I promised to report back, but really haven't a great deal to tell. We initially decided to go the Paneco way (got samples, visited factory), mainly because they had a team which would put up the panels and the timber components were less intimidating to builders wondering how to fix windows, doors, etc.
However, the company changed direction and we received advise not to go that way. Since then we have been investigating the Bondor Insulliving panels, These are 140mm for external & 90mm for internal walls, and have a special coating which allows them to be painted (internal) or rendered (external). We visited their demonstration house & liked what we saw.
However, I have to echo emmbee's experience on costing - the quote came rather high, not only for the panels alone, but the additional cost for the 3-coat render of the external walls per sq m is more than buying 'standard' coolroom panels of similar thickness. And, of course, there is the novelty factor - a builder who doesn't know what he is up against with a new method/material is always likely to build in some extra. The builder who quoted reckoned he could build a similar brick veneer house (with equivalent specs for insulation!) quite a bit cheaper than using panels - we are currently awaiting that quote. haven't given up on the SIPs yet, but am a bit disheartened.Posted Friday 20 Apr 2012 @ 6:28:46 am from IP #
Just an update on our plans. We've been investigating SIPS for the past 2 years or so as we've waited to sell our house in Kelmscott so we can build on our 5 acres in Parkerville. One flatlined property market, a bushfire through our suburb and finally we've sold. Significantly our budget has shrunk and so we are looking into a simple 2 bedroom plan based on a 8x12 metre WideSpan shed with us fitting out the interiors with SIPS. Our experience and risk of bushfire has us heading away from the EPS cores and wood OSB skins and toward MgO skins and polyurethane core. This limits suppliers for our project. There is FBM Corp that have a FC and polyurethane product but little else in Australia. I've found a company in China on Alibaba that sell 1220x2440mm (minimum order 100) panels with MgO skins and polyurethane core - pretty much my ideal. However - these will be outside Australian standards so this is an issue to consider. Given that the shed roof and structure is self supporting and that these SIPs are internal walls and nonload bearing except perhaps for ceiling joists/or panels I am not overly concerned. Ultimately this building will be a shed. We intend living in it until building a full spec house is an option in the future.
If anyone has any comments or opinions let fly. This is not an endorsement but if anyone is interested the company in China we are pursuing is;Huizhou Meisen Board Co., Ltd. We are still waiting on a reply from them for a quotation on prices for 90mm thick panels (min order 100 panels).
I guess as an aside if anyone else is in the market and we do head down this track perhaps a group buy would be worth consideringPosted Wednesday 25 Apr 2012 @ 1:49:38 pm from IP #
I have heard back from Huizhou Meisen Board Co. Ltd on the MgO/PU SIPs product.
The length is an optional 2280mm or 2440mm, the width is 1220mm or divisions of that ie 600mm or 400mm. Standard thickness is 12mm mgo board+76mm PU +12mm mgo board. Total thickness is 100mm. They will customise thickness of skin or foam according to need. I was asking for PU in 30-40kg/m3 density range and that apparently is an option. I was told we will get a price per m2 tomorrow for FOB so will update then. I will have to find out about shipping/ duties etc as that is a whole new world for me.
We would be aiming for a 2700mm total height using 2280mm long boards with a laterally placed 400mm wide board on top/ or at the base.Posted Wednesday 25 Apr 2012 @ 3:07:57 pm from IP #
Just when you think you've got a handle on the options - up pops another.
Does anyone have knowledge of the company Magnesium Oxide Board Corporation Pty Ltd based in Queensland. Have just been talking to Steve from the group about their supply of various MgO skinned SIPs. They supply MgO polyurethane panels and a new one which is MgO skins with an aerated MgO core. http://mgoboard.com.au
I've no idea on cost comparisons but interestingly they have far superior acoustic insulation and thermal insulation cf polyurethane MgO according to Steve. Will update here when I have more information. Am following up on OASIS a Canada based Chinese producer of MgO polyurethane SIPS and half a dozen others from the Alibaba site...Posted Thursday 26 Apr 2012 @ 8:25:09 am from IP #
It's like busses - wait for ages then a whole lot come by.
This week I spoke to the guys from Tensor:
They have some interesting products. Their wall product is cemented skins on polyurethane core with structural steel framing attached.
They also just do the insulated board product.
There is another product with an additional skin attached to the framing and you just fill it with concrete. Instant structural reverse brick veneer.
The chap said that they have just had a big investment from Hong Kong, have rented a big new factory in Melbourne, are opening a showroom near Dynon Rd in around 3 weeks and so on.
All rather interesting.
They are also producing "Ikea flat packed houses" using these materials. You get a truck load of panels cut to your design and an Allen key. Whole thing fits together with cams. Roof walls floor all insulated panels. Mining companies very interested apparently. These are to be in production " in about 3 months" the rest of the stuff is already available. He said they manufacture insulating panels for other people as well.
Google maps satellite view shows them as an empty block in west Melb but I managed to find the " for lease" ad for a very large building at that address. Must have gone up quickly - Probably made using SIPS
CheersPosted Thursday 26 Apr 2012 @ 9:19:23 am from IP #
I like the analogy of the buses,
Here is another one:
About to contact to cost a two-storey build so I will pass the info on, however after reading the whole thread the FBM Corp's R9 looks pretty good, better insulation PolyS vs PolyU but how would you rate the fibre cement vs one of the MgO products?
Which builders have built with R9?
First post after years of lurkagePosted Monday 21 May 2012 @ 1:16:28 pm from IP #
I think Energylite have built a house in Planet Street, Carlisle, WA, if you are anywhere near there. It looks good - but is still unfinished 3 months after the owners thought they would move in. Ask them about delivery guarantees.Posted Monday 21 May 2012 @ 1:22:33 pm from IP #
boysana there is a thread more specifically relating to FBM Corp R9
A list - probably out of date now but builders using/interested in using the R9 product (from thread above);Eclipse Developments, Fab Abode, Build Right Constructions, New Space Homes, ABN, Stallion Homes.Posted Monday 21 May 2012 @ 1:59:31 pm from IP #
These guys have an office on Sydney's Northern Beaches so I dropped by to check it out.
The system is essentially MgO board stuck onto extruded polystyrene. They use aluminium extrusions in the joints which is fine but it does create bridging issues IMO.
They also do a wallboard cladding with stone stuck on one face. Mostly 15mm. The slate looks really good,The australian limestone looks great, the chinese sandstone looks a bit plain (plain brown). Mounting system designed to attach to outside of existing building or to stud work. There is a weatherboard house in Newport converted to a "stone cottage" that looks convincing.
For fire performance the product requires MgO board behind it so its more a "feature wall" type product rather than a one solution SIP.
Regardless of manufacturer people looking to go this sort of way need to factor in the cost of the render system (or alternative thereto) . Materials only can start at $15 psm and it goes up up up from there. The quality of finish can vary a lot depending on materials and applicator skill.Posted Monday 21 May 2012 @ 11:25:55 pm from IP #
Been busy sussing out SIPS - quite a procedure. I checked with our insurance company - Wesfarmers - and they said they would happily insure us, in a bushfire rural setting, with SIPS panels - floor, walls and roof - if it complied to Aus. Standards.
We built a large shed with Widespan and would never touch them again - ever!! Missing parts, no labels, damage to product and no interest!
I am looking at waterproofing the OSB on the exterior SIPS panels with paintable waterproofing membrane from WRIMCO in Victoria. I will also use this for the roof instead of cladding it - they do a uv resistant membrane. Have a look at their website - they are also very helpful. Once that is done I am going to paint the wall membrane with a lime based (pretty much any colour you want) paint from Ability Building Chemicals in Victoria - I think Wrimco might distribute for them. Well worth a look at their website - they supply a super-abundance of information about their products - they guarantee their paints for 100 years or the life of the building! They also have non-slip paints for deck areas, which in our case will be sips panels waterproofed first.
Somewhere in my readings I have read about problems with MgO delaminating or something similar - plus there is a problem with metal bridging heat transfer with the FBM Corp panels as they use metal channels to hold the walls in place.
Hope this info helpsPosted Sunday 3 Jun 2012 @ 5:44:24 am from IP #
I've been looking at SIPS for several years and finally am in
a position to build. Great to see your posts.
Seems difficult to get a definitive answer from most suppliers
and so many potential alternatives appearing on the market.
Winentucker, do you know if the waterproof membrane you
mention allows the osb to breath? Interesting idea. When do
you think you'll start?
CheersPosted Saturday 9 Jun 2012 @ 2:21:40 am from IP #
There is a lot of tyre kicking and pro/con - too and fro debate going on over trivial aspects typical to any build in this forum and I hope I can kick some of you into gear! I built a house of commercial bondor 10 years ago and love it! So many comments on builders not having experience is flawed and that there are none around! Just get someone who builds cool rooms and factories for a living every day, they know all the tricks and will build it faster than any farmers union, shirts off with a glimps of sun, fancy ute driving typical urban brick veneer builder. Lets face it, we are on this forum to find alternative building gear to build sustainable and energy efficient homes. There are only a handful of builder who care a damn about sustainable building and they are some on here, most are used to building unsustainable, K&D or Bunnings off the shelve homes and of course they are scared of cool room pannel, I mean hell I bet most think "Jesus, that stuff's made of foam like my 100" tv packaging! Can't build a house out of that #@$%# and 10 year guarantee it, better double the quote so some other sucker takes it on."
As a 22 year old I started building a 3 story SIP house in a bushfire alley as an owner builder with my brother and father with no residential builders in sight, a professional cool-room builder for a week to teach us the tricks and a great engineer in a prime Hobart suburb whilst completing my uni degree. My father has done Ag college, my brother failed wood work and I did metal work till year 12 plus were were studying Ag Science degrees. We are farmers and had built a cheese factory and cool rooms out of bondor on the farm and thought it would be a good housing material. Instead of renting for the duration of our degrees we decided to build a house as a family instead of working on the farm during the prolonged drought. It has 3 stories on a very steep hillside and a roof which comes up out of the ground and curves back over the three stories to a point at the back of the 3rd story. The exterior and some interior walls are made from standard old unclad 100mm Bondor Panel and all ceilings are 250mm panel spanning up to 8m unsupported. There is an internal steel frame which we would like to have had on the outside but council would not pass it - they were scared enough of the materials!
In short the house is passive solar and very thermally efficient but hanging stuff from it does require some careful thought or expensive magnets but having lived in it since 2004 I love the stuff and I could afford to build in solar hot water etc with the money I saved. The acoustics of standard bondor panel are not great as I built next to a very steep highway and sound does take on a peculiar "rain like" bend to it and you need to put a lot of effort into gap sealing as you build. I got some acoustic testing done by a guy who make noise cancellation headsets for pilots and it was possible to make a cheap membrane to cancel out a lot of the noise and plaster over it. The other option is to batten off with sound-screen plaster and get the plaster finish inside if using the cheap industrial stuff like us is is pretty cost effective. To run services requires some planning but it is so easy to run cables, I cut channels in the edges of the panels with an old bread knife. You have to "box" some powerpoints and switches which adds about $1.75 per point and requires a neat cut to make it fit. Plumbing is just as easy but really needs to go down through the floor and really only 19mm or even 12mm is run inside any wall anyhow. Who runs a 65mm waste inside a 75mm cavity wall? It goes through the floor and cabinets.
The tools required to build with it are basic - Circular saw with panel blade (compliments of bondor), drill, pop riveter, sixaflex sausage gun, caulking gun, ladders, drop saw with aluminum blade, reciprocating saw to cut windows and doors and some tin snips to cut off the corners of the tongs. About a $2000 investment in tools all up plus some nylon insulation sheets (protect panels on site) and a block of wood and 10 pound hammer to push stubborn panels together and some mates to help carry the panels up the drive and tip them up into the channel. I clad my 2 story walls with 2 mates in 3 days with no scaffolding, no trades and the tools mentioned above.
I applogise for the length of the post but people need to realise just how good, cheap, safe and efficient these products are. Builders will always whine about new ideas and there are risks with the companies but hell, if 3 farmers can build a 3 story curved house out of commercial bondor panel then surely a professional builder can handle it? I am building a 95m2 extension on a new renovation I am doing and looking into the newer panels and man there are some options 10 years on but people are still kicking tyres for bogus reasons and there have been 10 years of innovation! Yes, I sound like a self assured tosser here but I think people need to get on and start using it more. If you have any questions or want to call me a wanker then PM me and I will be happy to supply you with a reply, pics or a rebuttal. I strongly disagree with the argument it is the same price as a brick veneer as the accounting used is misleading. How can SIP equal brick veneer? You don't need 3 blokes mixing mortar and laying bricks up a scaffold for weeks and you don't need chippies framing up. SIP needs a channel glued to the floor, a bead of silicon on the joints and two blokes can carry in the panel sheet, drop it in the channel and rivet it in. A wall can be done by lunch time, painted and ready for services!Posted Tuesday 12 Jun 2012 @ 8:06:52 am from IP #
Warren French Architect has been using bondor panels as sips in his floor and roof for the past two and a half years. He is a Tasmanian based architect and builder. He is working towards a producing a biodegradable structurally insulated panel. This should be released in August. Visit the website at http://www.valleyworkshop.com or contact Warren on 0417566964Posted Wednesday 13 Jun 2012 @ 12:41:53 pm from IP #
Hello all SIP enthusiasts, i've had a general read over previous discussions the groups has made towards interest being generated in SIP construction. The pro's and con's of OSB, metal skins, FC skins and MgO.
Well, just to introduce myself to the forum, we recently established a manufacturing facility in Adelaide, Manufacturing MgO based SIP panels and other associated building products like cladding, flooring and fencing products.
Several projects have been carried out, and more about to be done. We have significant interest now in the SIP system and not just in SA, but in the eastern and western states.
I am a builder, so I know the benefits of these upcoming technologies. I've dome many ICF projects, and felt the ICF system good, but at times expensive. We've entered the market to supply Builders and Home Owners another option to the ever expanding requests of clientele that are seeking new and thermally innovative building systems.
Those interested for a closer look, please check out http://www.magroc.co.nz These guys are our NZ sister company.Posted Wednesday 4 Jul 2012 @ 3:46:37 pm from IP #
Frankly the more competition the better.
I have read your NZ cousin's website and some of the links on it and it all looks very interesting. If you have all the right Oz certifications and decent spans you should do well.
One thing caught my eye however. In Morley's "Structural Insulated Panels" and also Lstiburek's "Builders Guide to Structural Insulated Panels for all Climates" (both excellent SIPs manuals BTW) they say that building wrap is required. Additionally Lstiburek says that roof seams should be taped with "SIP TAPE" (whatever that is) and Thermapan (http://www.thermapan.com/) say that roofs should be lined with "6 mil film" (whatever _that_ is) in order to prevent the dreaded "ridge rot".
The NZ site and some of the links from it (I think it was to a Canadian site) seem to imply that neither are required when using MgO panels. Have I read this correctly ? Is the difference because you use MgO skins rather than OSB ?
I am a bit uncertain about the whole vapour permeability thing when it comes to SIPs and I could use a bit of clarity.
Oh and I have sent you a PM
Good luck with your new venture
CheersPosted Thursday 5 Jul 2012 @ 1:09:46 am from IP #
What are OSB and FC and please will you summarize "the pro's and con's of OSB, metal skins, FC skins and MgO " ?
I live at Crafers in the Adelaide Hills and an imminent project is to build a 40sqm room using 150mm SIPs.
I am considering the Adelaide-made Austral SIPs constructed with styrene foam between outer skins of colourbond steel.
The room will use hydronic underfloor heating.
The 16mm PEX pipe will be under the 19mm bamboo floating-floor and on top of the 150mm SIP floor panel.
Concrete screed will not be used.
I have looked at your NZ website.
Please will you supply an Adelaide phone number.
TonyPosted Thursday 16 Aug 2012 @ 3:43:34 am from IP #
FC - fibre-cement
water proof - can be used in bathrooms/wet areas without further damp proofing, fire resistant. Can be used as an interior or exterior surface with only painting or rendering for effect
OSB - Orientated stand board (wood particle board essentially)
not water proof, long history of useage in US and Europe.
MgO - magnesium oxide (has other Magnesium salts and a matting material) - similar characterisitics to FC but better fire resistance, can be used in wet areas. Highly water repellant. Can be used as an interior or exterior surface with only painting or rendering - plastering can be done but not necessary. Some mentions of 'delaminating of 'skins from internal insulation. Strong holding capacity of brackets/ bolts etc.
Metal - some described problems with condensation but unlikely to be more than any other insulated surface. Electrically conductive if that is an issue. Long history of useage industrially.
Polystyrene XPS - extruded. Flammable above 280 deg. Generally treated with flame suppressants. Can soften at 100 degrees. Not good sound proofing. Most common insulation in SIPS currently.
Polyurethane PU - better per/cm R value insulation than polystyrene. Better inherent fire retardant. Chars rather than burns. Does not soften as readily at moderate temp (150deg) as polystyrene. Moderate sound proofing.
Poly Isocyanurate PIR - excellent R value insulation. Less readily available. Is used in some industrial roofing panels. Very good fire retardant properties.
Aerated MgO - has good sound proofing. Heavier than other products. Nonflammable. Heat resistant to extreme temperatures (furnace temperatures). Recent innovation. Only source I am aware of in Aust is MgO Corp based in Queensland.
Thats a summary of about 18months investigation for our own purposes. There is a lot more information is you scroll through this thread or the one on R9 FBM Corp (one product using FC and polyurethane) on this forum.Posted Thursday 16 Aug 2012 @ 7:14:03 am from IP #
Many thanks for your fantastic summary !
For our floor and roof, SIPs from Austral in Adelaide, with steel faces and styrene 150mm thick at $50/sqm are looking good.
For our walls, MgO both sides (ideally with 150mm polyurethane insulation) would be good.
Where can I buy MgO SIPs and what would they cost delivered to Adelaide ?Posted Thursday 16 Aug 2012 @ 7:37:07 am from IP #
TonyT Australian companies that may suit your requirements.
Paneco - MgO + XPS
MgO Corp - MgO + PU (or MgO + XPS)
FBM Corp - FC + PU
Thermopanel - wood or metal (unsure re FC or MgO) + PU
I have no info on Magtech - perhaps they can inform all of us here!
There are a large number of OSB + XPS SIP suppliers or Metal + PU or XPS suppliers that I havent followed up on as it doesnt suit our needs.
Oasis - MgO + PU (Canadian/Chinese Company - no Australian presence)
There is the option of importing panels from overseas - eg China on Alibaba (or try Oasis) if is just a DIY shed but for a Class 1 dwelling or one requiring all the engineering details may not be worth the hassle.Posted Thursday 16 Aug 2012 @ 8:01:06 am from IP #
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