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Solarplus System (Phazer) and evacuated tubes

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Started 9 months ago by peter69_56
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peter69_56
Member

I have a Solarplus system just installed by Phazer of Warragul. It has 18 evacuated tubes, 315 litre tank and Rennai 20 instant gas boost. The system was not installed well and leaked through my roof in the first day due to heating pipes melting cold water plastcic pipes. Solar pump failed to work and was replaced. Poor insulation on pipework. Bad positioning on instant heat system. Now all these have been resolved. My issues are, little heating even though there are sunny days. On the best day it heated the tank from 20 to 30C. We have 3 people in the house so 3 showers, and just hot water for kitchen use. No hot water used for washing or dishwasher. I am begining to think the following are wrong. Panel pitch is 23 degrees and facing near due north, but not a lot of heating taking place, believe that 38 degree pitch would help (but how much). Was told by supplier that any more tubes would cook the system up in summer but think that changing the pitch and adding another 6 tubes would give better heating in winter and reduce heating in summer. Water flow is only about 9 litres/min whcih sucks, they said it was due to tank being cold and heatin it up will improve things. Rennai 20 is rated at 20 l/min, but I am not seeing this yet. Tank is about 42 after a week of good and cloudy days. I see others have 30 tubes on 315 litre tank do they cook up in summer, and if so whats the down side of this. What do evacuated tube panels cost, as I am going to ask them to rectify and I am prepared to pay cost only to fix this if it needs more panels. Solar pump now seems to do what it should and is shut dowbn at night and cloudy days and running when the sun is out. It is a week into our solar and we are sooooo @#$%^ at the moment $4300 and we are not happy. The old system may have cost more to run but it did work ok. Any other suggestions anyone??

Peter

Posted Wednesday 3 Aug 2011 @ 7:56:38 am from IP #
dbindoff
Member

I have 30 tubes and 250l tank and 23 degrees near north. With this incline it won't heat sufficiently in Winter (I elected not to use a tilt frame for aesthetic reasons - also I believe performance is compensated in other seasons) I installed a 7 day timer, for boost with multiple programmed sessions available. I boost 1 major boost per week to ensure legionella etc is kept at bay and around 3/4 hour during winter daily. Mostly no boost is required other seasons but we only have 2 in the house usually. We have had 2 summers, last summer no problems 'cooking', the first summer we shrank the insulation - I have adjusted the pump flow rate to be higher than recommended - this seems better to me all round - it is suggested for summer 'cooking' problem (Hills)

I can't imagine 18 tubes would be sufficient in any season for a southern cool climate especially with a 315l tank.

Posted Wednesday 3 Aug 2011 @ 12:17:21 pm from IP #
Sunshine
Member

peter69_56,
A 18 tube system and you live in Victoria? Unless you are living by yourself it just won't be enough.
I would recommend a min. of 30 tube in Victoria. I am in Brisbane have a 30 tube system for 3 people and runs 99.9% boost free and there is no issue of overheating in summer.
The Hills system is thermostatically controlled and pump shuts off at 95 degrees, I would say your system would be thermostatically controlled as well, otherwise the pump would run day and night..

Posted Wednesday 3 Aug 2011 @ 1:45:47 pm from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Yes the system is thermatically controlled. It shuts down when temperatures from panel output is within (I assume 6 degrees or so) of the tank supply to panel temperature. If the tank cooks up and the tank to panel temp reaches panel temp then I believe that the pump will shut down. I would love to be in a position of knowing if that would really happen.

Anyone have an idea as to what the 6 tube panels are worth as I want the installer to fit them at cost seeing they told me I didnt need any extra when I asked them before I purchased, I wanted the system to work well but was told it would cook up the tank in summer? Does anyone have an opinion on pitch of the panels, obviously if the pitch is at latitude plus 10, then its better overall, but what might the efficiency increase be compared to cost. I dont want to spend another say $1000 for in increase of say 1%, not worth it.

Posted Wednesday 3 Aug 2011 @ 10:42:34 pm from IP #
dbindoff
Member

I think individual tubes are around $30 but I have seen wildly variable prices, in any case, you need the complete manifold, not just the tubes, if you look on ebay they several usually around $1000 I think for 20 tubes.

Posted Wednesday 3 Aug 2011 @ 11:46:31 pm from IP #
Sunshine
Member

I think tubes are $30-$50 each, but you need to change the manifold to suit, as the manifold is where the tubes plug into. Do Solarplus supply larger manifolds?

Posted Thursday 4 Aug 2011 @ 2:19:04 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

They gang banks of 6 tubes to a manifold then connect them up as required so I could add another 6 or 12 if required.

Posted Thursday 4 Aug 2011 @ 7:28:53 pm from IP #
Sunshine
Member

I'd be adding another 12 to make 30 as a minimum.

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 12:12:02 am from IP #
Catopsilia
Member

I have no experience, so I go from first principles.
If you live near Warragul in southern Victoria you are at 38 degrees south latitude. You need to absorb the most of the available heat in July. Other months will look after themselves if you get that right.
To face the noon sun a north-facing tube array needs to slope at 60 degrees. If it slopes at only 23 degrees, that is 37 degrees too flat. I think that will result in receiving only 80% of the solar radiation per metre of tube. I am open to correction on that.

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 3:26:56 am from IP #
Catopsilia
Member

Even if you are resigned to boosting in mid-winter, Peter, it is still best to aim for maximum solar gain in that season. Otherwise, excessive solar gain will cause overheating in summer.

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 3:56:57 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

I do not have a ET system, but from what I have garnered from all the info on forums, especially here at ATA, you need to set the panels at around your latitude plus 25º. This boosts winter solar gain, and the high angle reduces summer gain when there is lots of sun about.

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 7:32:04 am from IP #
Ueee
Member

Someone posted a link to a hot water collector angle in another post, you may just have to search for it. It may have been in the perfect solar hot water system thread?

This is just another one of those situations where the salesman is taking advantage of people who want to go green, its a shame how often this seems to be happening.

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 11:56:42 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

I have decided that the industry is full of wannabees who go get a solar licence after 1 weeks study and think they know it all, attach this to (how do I maximise profits) and then provide solar plans to uninformed public. If I knew at the begining what I know nopw I would have asked a lot more questions and dictated to them how it would be installed in fine detail. To resolve the current issues I have now conceded that it will cost me more for more solar panels, tilt frame and replumbing.

Whilt I dont mind the extra investment as such, I am so pissed off that I asked for more panels up front and was told no. Now I am expected to not only pay for the additional, but also the refitting of plumbing which should only be an incremental cost rather than a totally new and inflated cost.

My opinion of most in this industry is that they are ill informed, dont care of the product they sell and dont care about professional work. And to boot they continue to feed out the bull crap on an ongoing basis even though they can see that now you are better informed. Perhaps believing in their own crap sales pitch.

One thing I cannot find on the internet is a consultant who could be independant and offer advice (at a price). it seems all in the industry are in sales and not prepared to just sell "good advice".

So for me back to the drawing board, extra panels, tilt frame and a plumber to resolve it I think. I am sure with my input into the system it will work ok but so much for prefessionally installed systems. Their motto is "Our Company: Phazer's mission is to provide our customers with the best quality products and highest level of service everytime. We place a strong emphasis on this and will go above and beyond to ensure our customer needs are met and if possible exceed their expectations"

Guess what, I am still waiting for this outcome to be even close to the mark. I prompted them to this in an email and was deafened by the silence.

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 12:12:38 pm from IP #
Ueee
Member

try a sustainable energy consultant or something like that. I know a guy here in Canberra (his house has won awards etc) who will, for a fee, do consultancy on any form of energy saving, whether it be a simple energy audit or a full on energy plan including HWS, PV, heating etc.

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 12:30:41 pm from IP #
Ueee
Member

and to my previous post i missed a word in "Someone posted a link to a hot water collector angle in another post" it should be a hot water collector angle CALCULATOR" one word can mean so much can't it?

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 12:32:33 pm from IP #
Catopsilia
Member

Peter, I was thinking that your supplier did not have two neurones to rub together. Now I agree that he has no ethics.
I am glad you have "named and shamed" him. However, I wonder how many people thinking of buying solar hot water systems read this forum. There is probably a State body that should act against sharp practice.

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 11:14:38 pm from IP #
amun-ra
Member

Queensland plumbers have to do a solar acreditation course to install shw maybe the res of aus should follow iour lead

Posted Friday 5 Aug 2011 @ 11:43:18 pm from IP #
Catopsilia
Member

I sorted out my ideas on the best angle for evacuated tubes, but decided to start a general thread:
Evacuated Tubes for Solar Hot Water.
http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2354

Serious discussion of the best angle is in this other thread:
Best angle for SHW
http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/530

Posted Saturday 6 Aug 2011 @ 7:08:03 am from IP #
Rossmonty01
Member

I have a Hills Solar Hotwater esteem 11 and was put in a month ago at the sunshine coast
worked Ok during the cloudy days but I have had an issue with it as it does not initially start in the mornings so its cold at night with out the booster on. it has not been consistent so far
As an electrician I have observed without touching any thing,
seems the oneway valve is not operating as the hot water heat is on the output side of the circulating pumpe above the oneway valve and the pump only works some times.
could be the sensor will not start the controller and the system overheats
Supplier has been very good so far and they are coming back to install a new sensor controller and a one way valve

Posted Saturday 6 Aug 2011 @ 11:35:00 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Ok further to my posting. Spoke with the supplier (owner) and was very frank with him about the total installation. He was very detailed in what they have supplied and why they supplied it. There are issues with claiming REC's on overdesigned systems so I can see why they err on the conservative side (along with overheating in summer issue and possible damage if you go away in summer for 2 weeks). I explained I wanted a system for all year around rather than a summer system only and accepted that most of this additional cost I have to cover (as it would have cost me for additional panel, frame and incremental plumbing cost anyway). Also for anyone looking to use a steel ceramic coated tank you have to check the anode 4 yearly (would have gone for stainless if I had known that).

After much discussion they have agreed to change over the instant gas system at a nominal changeover fee from a Rennai 20 to Rennai 26. Will use more gas but will provide the flow we need when boosting. They also agreed that they could provide additional panel plus stand to change the pitch to 45 degrees ( would prefer 55-60 I think), all at a (I hope after the discussion) discounted price.

On another note the panels do NOT face due north but at 50 degrees from true north so I guess that will reduce the efficiency of the panels anyway all year around (anyone have a ball park figure on the efficiency loss when not due north). These panels are not just evacuated tube but have mirroring behind them so are 30% more efficient than the normal evacuated tube setup.

I am hoping with the above changes I will get most of my heating year around now. Just wish I had this conversation with him before I ordered, all the frustration could have been avoided up front. I think thats the issue with having sales people who do not know significant technical detail for the system and have knowledge marginally above a layperson. Once I started talking detail they had to refer me to the owner who clearly has the understanding and knowledge to understand and provide a better solution.

Pump is single speed and he advised that there are government restrictions on flow rates too ??? He also said that all suppliers had to have their systems deregistered this year and have them recertified (I think to ensure that they met the criteria for REC's).

All in all if they can do as I have now asked, I will be satisfied, although in retrospect, had I known what I now know, I would have ordered a 315 litre stainless with 24 tubes tilted for winter bias. So I await the quote and changes and will see how it all goes.

Posted Monday 8 Aug 2011 @ 6:55:40 am from IP #
amun-ra
Member

Puting more tubes will help but it would be best if yu could face the system to the north this will make more of an impact on your winter output. pitching to 45 degrees is a waste of time if it doesn't face north if you bought a system from me I would have seen yyur house and insisted you face north or go to another company and try your luck.Do it twice but get it right the second time please.

Posted Monday 8 Aug 2011 @ 8:37:52 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Due to the layout of my house I have the following options from true north; 50 degrees (where it currently is) or 320 degrees (which faces the street and not the preferred option anyway). I really dont have much in the way of options due to roof orientation and nothing else to mount it on (even back yard). The main section of roof already has solar panels so unavailable, and what I have left is the above.

Posted Monday 8 Aug 2011 @ 11:31:11 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

It is possible to fin mount the collectors, and face them north, even on a roof facing away from north. I will try to find a diagram I saw on an older thread here on ATA forums.

Posted Monday 8 Aug 2011 @ 11:37:39 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

Found it, it is on 'Best roof direction for solar panels' search http://www.vibrantsolar.com/solarbasics4.htm

Posted Monday 8 Aug 2011 @ 11:53:00 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Thanks Russell

Posted Monday 8 Aug 2011 @ 11:59:49 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Well spoke to the supplier and we agreed to do the following as a resolution to my expectations and current output;

Increase the instantaneous hot water to 26 litres/min (this should sort the flow problem at low tank temperatures)

Add an extra panel =30% increase in heating
Tilt panels to 60% = 60% increase in winter and -20% in summer (compared to current 3 panel & 25 tilt)

Calcs are approximate and rough but indicitave I think of how it will end up.

Havent got the quote yet but he agreed to discount the price given the issues and original advice to go with 18 tubes only (they are new type with a suggested 60% increase over standard tubes as they have mirror backing to help reflect the energy back into the tubes)

Will see how it all pans out.

Posted Thursday 11 Aug 2011 @ 7:05:18 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

Did you mean tilt panels to 60º (to get the º symbol hold down Alt and type 167)

Just goes to show you can't always trust suppliers and installers when it comes to recomendations. I wish I knew about sites like this ATA one before I did some things around the house.

Posted Thursday 11 Aug 2011 @ 7:15:24 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

removed, sorry

Posted Thursday 11 Aug 2011 @ 11:49:17 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

oops

Posted Thursday 11 Aug 2011 @ 11:50:02 am from IP #
Sunshine
Member

peter69_56,
And don't forget to get them to install the tempering valve as well. They should be installing them by law, so you shouldn't have to pay extra, as it should have been in the original quote.

Posted Thursday 11 Aug 2011 @ 2:22:16 pm from IP #

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