Solarplus System (Phazer) and evacuated tubes « Alternative Technology Assn Forums

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Solarplus System (Phazer) and evacuated tubes

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Started 9 months ago by peter69_56
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peter69_56
Member

Well got a quote to add another 6 tubes (parobolic type with tilt frame and was told about $1100 plus fitting ($500) from the original supplier (we agreed he would provide at cost). Believing he was selling at cost and profit I looked around and priced several systems. Best I can do normal price was 18 tubes (not parobolic) and tilt frame $990.

So much for the (we ) will fix it at cost, no profit. Some companies are no happy to charge full price for a sub standard system that doesnt do as they said it would, they then want to charge full price to fix it.

I have decided to hold free seminars on solar hot water in my area, what to watch out for, and what questions to ask, what guarentees to ask for in writing. Should I be asked who to recommend I will explain who I would not (under any circumstances) recommend.

i despise companies who have no conscious.

So much for their motto "Our Companies mission is to provide our customers with the best quality products and highest level of service everytime. We place a strong emphasis on this and will go above and beyond to ensure our customer needs are met and if possible exceed their expectations".

I believe my system will never meet any resonable expectations unless additional tubes are added and tilted. Then I can see it will work well.

Today a hot good day, sun all day long and tank temp (not all of it) got to 45 degrees. I suspect maybe 1/3 is now 45 degrees. SO maybe after 3-4 days of good weather I might get to 60 degrees. A far cry from the plumber's quote "I fit lots of these and have had people ring after 3 hours and tell me the tank is up to temperature on a good day"

there should be standards for fitting, and performace criteria based on location and average weather etc. Another roofing insulation debacle.

Posted Saturday 20 Aug 2011 @ 11:40:54 am from IP #
ROBERT O
Member

I also have the pleasure of being a PHASER customer with a useless solar hot water system. Lousy system, shoddy workman ship. Arrogance, bad management, bad attitude.
But do not dare to criticise.
I would prefer if They never set foot on my property again.

Posted Friday 21 Oct 2011 @ 11:45:40 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

welcome to the club

Posted Friday 21 Oct 2011 @ 10:07:17 pm from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Its not the material as the panels work ok (although I think over priced), its not the pump, good quality but wrong size, not enough head, the tank is aquamax and ok.

As you say, bad installation, not a lot of care or attention. Bad attitude when you go talk to them and they will not seriously listen and help.

I got the owner of their installer to come fix the damage (water), repair the bad work and still wasnt happy with the end result as he didnt want to insulate right up to the tank or all the pipework, but didnt want them back to do anymore work.

In the main, poor insulation, insufficient heating tubes, leaking pipework, cheapest controller with no user info like the better ones.

If you are very upset I have the plumbing inspectors number and they can and will take away their licence to plumb.

Posted Friday 21 Oct 2011 @ 10:22:19 pm from IP #
peter69_56
Member

ROBERT O said:
I also have the pleasure of being a PHASER customer with a useless solar hot water system. Lousy system, shoddy workman ship. Arrogance, bad management, bad attitude.
But do not dare to criticise.
I would prefer if They never set foot on my property again.

Robert, if you can let me know what system you have, number of tubes, tank size and type of boost (gas/electric). I have made some changes to ours and it is now working somewhat better. I intend to make some more as well.

it would also help me to know what they did and why you are not happy with what you have. I am assuming they did not tell you in more detail how the system works, what to expect and more information. I know they didnt with me, and if they had it would at least help with your expectations.

I really would appreciate more information on your system.

Peter

Posted Monday 24 Oct 2011 @ 12:16:10 am from IP #
TonyT
Member

peter69_56

Please explore the information and the links that are posted at
http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2135#post-20095

Posted Monday 24 Oct 2011 @ 1:59:46 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Tony,

thanks for the link.

My calculations are a bit more simplistic. I have graphed my gas bills for the last 5 years and worked out I am saving about 150Mj/day By 365= 54,750Mj per year by about 0.014 cents/Mj = $766 saving per year. System cost me $4300 and lest say I spend $1200 upgrade, less $1200 I would have spent if I put in a non solar system so I have to recover $4300 so $4300/760=5.6 years

I am happy with that and thats on todays pricing so on the assumption gas will increase in price I would say safely 5 years payback for a 30 tube system.

pricing and gas consumption are approximate but good enough for the exercise.

Posted Monday 24 Oct 2011 @ 3:45:06 am from IP #
hamish05
Member

Peter69, are you saying that your previous Gas HWS used more than 150MJ/day?
It seems a hell of a lot of gas.

Posted Monday 24 Oct 2011 @ 5:46:28 am from IP #
TonyT
Member

150MJ is a lot of gas to use in one day.

150MJ is 150/3.6 = 41.7kWh.

This is enough heat for about 40 showers per day if each shower uses one kWh to heat 20 litres of water.

As is shown at
http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2135#post-20095

in Adelaide the average winter daily solar insolation is 3.5kWh per square metre.

The link

http://eosweb.larc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/sse/grid.cgi?email=tonyth2%40gmail.com&step=2&lat=-36&lon=138&num=319055&submit=Submit&p=grid_id&sitelev=&veg=17&hgt=+100

can be used to determine the solar insolation figure for Melbourne, probably less than 3.5kWh/day in winter.

If evacuated tubes collect 70% of the solar insolation, in Adelaide they will collect
0.7 x 3.5 = 2.5kWh/sqm per day in winter.

To collect 41.7kWh you will need 41.7 / 2.5 = 16.7sqm of evacuated tubes.

If a collector with 30 evacuated tubes covers 3.8sqm, you will need
30 x 16.7/3.8 = 132 evacuated tubes to collect 41.7kWh per day in winter.

If you install fewer tubes the missing heat will be supplied by the (? electric) booster element.

Posted Monday 24 Oct 2011 @ 10:17:08 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Just looking at my previous gas bills and thats the difference, however maybe we had used our central heating more at this time of the year in the last 2 years compared to now. it shows 100 to 150 MJ more gas per day then than now. I had a 135 litre HWS tank on gas then compared to instant gas with solar now since June. Central heating remains the same.

My average gas usage right now for the last 2 months is 130MJ/day down from 300MJ last a year same time, and 240MJ the year before. Those figures are from my gas bill. The figures for this period this year are from my meter readings and will be interesting to compare to my gas bill in a few weeks.

Posted Monday 24 Oct 2011 @ 1:02:30 pm from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Hi Peter , all responses you are getting is to do with heat pipe systems , yours is "U" pipe with CPC...rule of thumb for you to compare is...18 solar plus tubes have an equivalent output of roughly 24-26 heat pipes due to the CPC reflector technology..the 47mm tube at 1500mm long they use is old technolgy...heat pipe use 58mm x 1800mm long...

Posted Tuesday 25 Oct 2011 @ 2:18:55 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Thanks for the info. They said it was supposed to work better but they are very expensive and I wonder if they justify the cost for the return. Also I am not getting sufficient heating from the system. I have been waiting for summer to see hot hot the system gets and will probably add another 12 standard tubes before the CPC tubes.

Posted Tuesday 25 Oct 2011 @ 3:09:45 am from IP #
TonyT
Member

Skysolarman

Q1. Is it correct that evacuated tubes that are 1800mm long and connected to the manifold at 70mm spacing collect 70% of the incoming solar radiation ?

Q2. Do flat plate collectors collect 30% of the incoming solar radiation ?

Q3. Please will you provide a link to information about "U" pipe with CPC tubes ?

Q4. What percentage of the incoming solar insolation is captured by "U" pipe with CPC tubes ?

Posted Tuesday 25 Oct 2011 @ 3:30:09 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

From the data I have on mine for are that for 18 tubes they are (as a panel of 3 x 18 tubes on a frame) 2100 mm wide and 1700mm long.

http://www.linuo-ritter-international.com/products/evacuated-tube-collectors/pressurized/ I think these are similar to what I have. Edson Solar also sell similar if not the same as well.

Posted Tuesday 25 Oct 2011 @ 6:35:57 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Sunshine >

peter69_56 has a Sunplus system which is chinese made by Linuo Paradigma , it has CPC (Compound Parabolic Concentrator) reflector technology so you really cannot compare Heat pipe tubes technology to U pipe with CPC technology , their efficiency is very different.
Due to their older technology of 47mm size tubes their 18 tubes is the equivalent of roughly 25-26 Heat pipes no matter what the brand , Skysolar has similar technology , Italain made with 58mm tube size.
If his system is not performing it is generally an install issue

Posted Thursday 3 Nov 2011 @ 2:34:28 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Hi peter69_56

, Linuo is the Chinese manufacturer who manufacture the Sunplus collector , they use Ritter CPC because it cannot be reproduced in China , the Sunplus collector is sold worldwide. Linuo also manufacturer to my knowledge a higher spec collector similar to Sky Solar design for the German and european market only for Ritter the German company who owns the Linuo-Paradigma brand

Posted Thursday 3 Nov 2011 @ 2:43:22 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

TonyT

1) Tubes that are for U pipe systems with CPC are 58mm dia and 1500mm long..not 1800mm
2) I cannot be specific in regards to flat plate collectors as there is so many different brands on the market but you may be right in your thoughts
3)www.alphaheatingandsolar.co.nz on the menu look under KLOBEN or http://www.alphaenergy.co.nz or http://www.kloben.co.uk
4)Absorption levels are up to 94% due to CPC technology

Good Luck

Posted Thursday 3 Nov 2011 @ 2:49:34 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Skysolarman,

Do you sell or know where I could obtain similar to what I already have. The ideal situation for me would be to add another 6 tube manifold to what I already have.

I asked the original supplier and he would not be resonable in pricing given I asked for an additional 6 tubes up front. I discussed with him that now I have to pay again to have the install changed, and given I asked for the extra 6 and was told no dont need them, I would expect him to help me with price to make it that I pay for the additional products but the plumbing cost is absorbed within the total job. We discussed and agreed on a rough price and he was to confirm it. When I had written quote it was seriously inflated. I discussed it and said he had agreed to cost price for me on product and I pay his plumber, so no one loses money and I get what I asked for in the first place. He was beligerant and just said thats what i charge. So a bad install, water through roof, broken tiles, not fully tested and faulty, pump undersized for the job, poor sensor wiring etc etc, and not what I asked for in the first place. hence my desire to NEVER go back there again or to recommend to anyone.

I then rang the chinese producer who put me onto a distribution company in SA, I emailed them and they ignored me. So given that to date I really only had a choice to go with standard tubes. If I do this its not ideal as I dont have the room on the roof in that area, and have to set it up on another section of roof. If I could get another 6 tubes similar to what I have (CPC), I can gang them onto the end of the 18 I have now and tilt them on a frame, change the pump to 3 speed, change controller (if you have controllers I would buy one as well).

Remember my angle is NE so some loss there, as well as 25 degree tilt so not ideal for spring/autumn or winter, hence my desire to add more collector and tilt.

If you dont sell, or represent a company do you have any suggestions as to a company I can deal with? I just tried googling skysolar and had no joy

I have been told that greenland have them but they have over priced them for what they are. The price given to me from Phazer for 6 tubes was the equivelant of what I would pay for 18 tubes with stainless tilt frame.

Posted Thursday 3 Nov 2011 @ 3:58:14 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

peter69_56

I own Sky Solar , my ex business partner shut down the website after he did a runner with a great deal of company money hence the reason why you could not find me on Google. Fortunately I have been able to find new investors and partners to continue with the skysolar brand which should be up and running with our new websites alpha-enviro.com.au and envirospot.com.auagain before xmas.
Skysolar collectors come in only 2 sizes either 12 or 18 tubes , 12sky tubes is the equivalent to 20+ heat pipes and 18 sky tubes is = to 30 heat pipes , I still have a reasonable stock level left so we could indeed supply you , should you choose to purchase one of our 12 tube collectors you will need to cover a few of them , i have found in the past that 65mm soil and waste pipe has an internal dia of roughly 61mm which slides over the 58mm tube nicely and the collector still looks good on the roof.
You can contact me on tony@alpha-enviro.com.au for pricing if you like

Posted Friday 4 Nov 2011 @ 1:59:14 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

So if I were to use my 18 tubes + your 12 tubes I would have 30 which is equivelent to about 35-36 tubes ?? Maybe I tilted to 60 degrees it may not overheat in summer??? If not, as you say, cover a few.

Posted Friday 4 Nov 2011 @ 2:49:35 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Sunshine said:
peter69_56,
I am in Brisbane have a 30 tube system for 3 people and runs 99.9% boost free and there is no issue of overheating in summer.

What tilt angle are your tubes set to? As a matter of fact how many people here have their system set for normal roof pitch and what number of tubes do they have and where do they live. This should give us all a good idea on how the majority of people are set up and if their system has any stagnation issues in summer.

Posted Friday 4 Nov 2011 @ 11:57:41 pm from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Hi peter69_56....your post :-
Sunshine said:
peter69_56,
I am in Brisbane have a 30 tube system for 3 people and runs 99.9% boost....is because he only has 2 people i think in the home and if memory serves his system faces west hence he has no issues of overheat in summer ...i did point out to him along time ago(assuming im talking about the right person here)that if his system was facing north his experience would be horrendous with o/heat issues...remember your 18 tubes is = to 26 of his heat pipes roughly , so if you had 18 sunplus tubes and 12 skysolars tubes you would have the equivalent of approx 46-50 heat pipe tubes give or take..thats a huge system in my books so you better have large usage or cover some up

Posted Tuesday 8 Nov 2011 @ 12:18:57 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

I think the skysolar tubes are the same as my sunplus solar so I would put up the 12 skysolar tubes and take down one 6 tube bank of sunplus solar giving me 24 tubes in all which is the equivelant of 34 tubes, tilting them to 50 degrees should cool this somewhat in summer and give me better capacity in autumn, spring and some winter. I also have 3 people here. My system also faces NE so not ideal with some losses as well.

I am thinking if I have effectively 35 tubes that will give me sufficient boost. I may cover a couple in summer if I have to but will see how i go. It also depends on the price of the skysolar tubes too. if they are very expensive similar to sunplus I will go with Apricus or such and simply remove the centre heating element of some to give me the capacity I need. Also if I go with Apricus I will put the bank on the NW roof and tilt too.

Any thoughts on this ?

Posted Tuesday 8 Nov 2011 @ 12:49:26 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Peter69

Skysolar tubes are not the same..they are 58mm dia and sunplus is 47mm so mine are a lot more efficient , if you buy skysolar why not just keep what you have and see how the system performs over summer , if you have too much energy and you cant use it all then you could with some monitoring experience cover tubes to suit and perhaps in winter uncover them all and gauge it from there.

Posted Tuesday 8 Nov 2011 @ 3:38:50 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Sounds like a plan

Posted Tuesday 8 Nov 2011 @ 5:39:12 am from IP #
peter69_56
Member

Ok found a supplier who can supply another 6 tube parabolic mirror bank so I will have 24 tubes. Also got a SR-1068 solar controller. Now I can see what the system is doing, (collector, tank top and tank bottom temperatures) and best of all my gas boost is now fully auto. If the tank top temp falls below 58C I have gas boost, if it reaches 60C or greater due to solar heating the gas boost is turned off until the tank top temp falls back to 58C with water use. Makes life so easy now. I am currently using about $0.30 a day in gas when the tank has no boost. Also the original black box controller read the tank max temp at the bottom of the tank and was fixed at 80C. That means the top of the tank could reach 95C and set off the PTV and dump all my hot water. Now I read tank top temp so this "crap design" issue is now gone as well.

Posted Saturday 19 Nov 2011 @ 6:44:17 am from IP #

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