Is the green loans program going to run out? « Alternative Technology Assn Forums

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Is the green loans program going to run out?

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Started 2 years ago by anna76
Latest reply from Buzzman

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gazgc
Member

I also left a well-paid job, completed a course before Xmas, set up a business, and am still waiting for ABSA to license me. I have a wife and three kids and I haven't had an income for two months.

I did the HSA training course with a company that were clearly focussed on the environmental aspect of things, and was surprised how many ppl seemed to only be interested in the money aspect. OTOH these ppl also gained some valuable knowledge that they can pass on to others, so I do not see that as a complete negative. The real question is what happens now.

I have sent letters to Peter Garrett and Penny Wong, as I believe the best solution is to refinance the Green Loans program for another 300,000 homes. There should also be an investigation into shoddy operators, based on feedback from their clients.

At the moment this program is becoming a political football, as evidence by the Murdoch press's eagerness to embarrass the govt. EG:

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,1,26670520-952,00.htm

This political row is unlikely to help any of us. By injecting new funds into the program, the Rudd govt can defuse the issue, keep ppl working, and continue to help the environment.

Posted Wednesday 3 Feb 2010 @ 1:35:46 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

To all those who have paid and not yet received, alas it appears likely from comments posted on the ABSA Members Forum that the scheme is likely to finish very soon, possibly before the end of February.
Assessors posting their booking number son line indicates a booking rate of around 20,000 assessments being booked into the call cantre each day, mostly apparently by the larger corporates who have multiple staff doing nothing but hit the phone Redial button in order to ensure they get their bokings in before the scheme goes belly up.
A good scheme flawed by corporate greed and govt mismanagement.
For the record, ABSA told DEWHA they would have too many assessors in AUGUST 2009!!
They asked if they could close of accpetance of new assessors on Spet 30th and DEHA refused.
So the blame for the debacle is CLEARLY with DEWHA and the greedy RTOs and big corporates's stuffing the system up for everyone else.

Posted Wednesday 3 Feb 2010 @ 3:44:47 am from IP #
nickperry
Member

Hi all,

I am a journalist writing an article about this issue of the Green Loans program going belly up and was wondering if I could speak to anyone who left their job and invested thousands to become assessors. Your stories are essential to action being taken.

Also looking to speak to anyone, even off the record or via email, who are close to DEWHA or ABSA or know something particularly controversial about this program, such as dodgy training programs.

My email is perrynicke@hotmail.co.uk

Thanks

Posted Wednesday 3 Feb 2010 @ 8:10:11 am from IP #
WestAssessor
Member

What exactly are you trying to achiece here Nick?

Advancement in your own field or are you genuinely interested in the plight of home assessors?

Posted Wednesday 3 Feb 2010 @ 8:17:21 am from IP #
nickperry
Member

To West Assessor:

I guess in a way I am trying to work out how many people actually care about the environment, and how many will make a career out of exploiting potentially sustainable, positive projects just to make a quick buck. Seems there are a mix of both on this thread.

My mate is an assessor who has been hung out to dry. That is how I found out about the story. I am also somebody trying to make a living. SO a little from Column A, a little from Column B.

Posted Wednesday 3 Feb 2010 @ 10:08:19 am from IP #
WestAssessor
Member

Fair enough Nick, good luck in bringing this mismanagement to light, I have a genuine interest in the environment, I know the actions of this generations will have repercussions down the track.

Was the financial incentive enticing, absolutely, has the execution of this scheme been disastrous at nearly every turn? You bet.

If more funds are not poured into the program there will be a class action on the governements hands, I love the fact that Peter Garrett has been sidelined.

He is clueless.

Posted Wednesday 3 Feb 2010 @ 4:38:51 pm from IP #
gazgc
Member

Thanks for the info Buzzman. I asked ABSA if those of us awaiting licenses could at least get forum logins but didn't get a proper reply.

Agree that Peter Garret has a lot to explain here. So far his spokesperson is saying the Green loans program has been a big success. If they inject funding for another 300,000 homes and block the cowboys, maybe it still could be. But there is an election in the air...

Posted Wednesday 3 Feb 2010 @ 11:49:29 pm from IP #
SWEETCREEK
Member

I just found this on the Greens website!

Milne refers Green Loans debacle to Auditor General
Media Release | Spokesperson Christine Milne
Thursday 4th February 2010, 11:13am
in

* Energy Efficiency

The Greens have today written to the Auditor General asking for an immediate and comprehensive investigation into the gross mismanagement of the Green Loans Scheme by Minister Peter Garrett and the Department of Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts.

"The Green Loans Scheme is an excellent idea that has turned into an utter debacle through gross mismanagement by Peter Garrett's department," Australian Greens Deputy Leader, Senator Christine Milne said.

"We Greens have been parliament's strongest advocates for household energy efficiency upgrades and the Green Loans Scheme is based on a Greens' 2007 election initiative.

"Energy efficiency upgrades save householders money, reduce emissions and create thousands of green jobs and small businesses.

"Whether because of incompetence, lack of interest or deliberate design, the Green Loans Scheme has now joined the rooftop solar program, the insulation roll-out and the Renewable Energy Target as strong programs gone badly wrong.

"The Auditor General should immediately investigate how the Green Loans Scheme went so badly wrong."

Allegations sent to Senator Milne and forwarded to the Auditor General include:
• failure to adhere to the promised 1,000 -2,000 limit on the number of assessors;
• failure to deliver on the promised online booking mechanism, and failure to provide or oversee the interim call centre booking process;
• failure to administer the conditions the Federal Government placed on its own program regarding conflicts of interest;
• failure to exercise quality control and due diligence in relation to the standard of training provided to prospective assessors, and the quality of assessments provided to consumers;
• failure to implement an audit facility within the program; and
• favouritism and discriminatory practises relating to access to work through the program.

"The government's failure to limit the number of accredited home sustainability assessors, and the preference it has given to large corporates, is destroying job security and undermining the viability of many small businesses.

"A program expected to last until 2013 is likely to achieve its 360,000 assessments next month.

"The government has once again massively underestimated community enthusiasm to get behind action on climate change and the transformation to a low carbon economy and green jobs.

"It is well past time the Prime Minister took his lead from the community instead of caving in to polluters and holding the community back."
from:
http://christine-milne.greensmps.org.au/content/media-release/milne-refers-green-loans-debacle-auditor-general

Posted Thursday 4 Feb 2010 @ 12:25:02 am from IP #
Daniel Boon
Member

This is my first posting ... did the course with over 20 people mid-December, most were there via companies with their snouts in the insulation trough and had little knowledge of housing apart from living in one ...

I'm still waiting (no, not after appointments at $50 a pop thanks anna76).

This Alison Carmicheal (CEO ABSA) is the consumate liar it appears ... she says 'the association has committed extra resources to processing these applications, increasing our internal capacity by 200%'

Truth is I called for accreditation and spoke to a person in there who advised that applications received in January are not being processed by them, but by an external operation who are sending back accreditations but not in the order they received them; so I could 'expect accreditation in about 3 weeks' ...

Of course ABSA staff and the 'external operation' are paid handsomely; not-for-profit organisations disburse income in the form of wages and bonuses rather than have a 'profit' at the end of a financial year, while we have to wait patiently to receive a document that will enable us to earn ???

I'm based in Brisbane and designed and built my first energy efficient house in 1984; wear and tear from being on the tools the last 12+ years and the extension into becoming an assessor was what motivated me.

I believe that if the Green Loans program is fair dinkum, then there should be concern about the poor take-up of the $10K Green Loan and future assessors may need to take extra training to not only help people apply, but make recommendations on solar hot water, solar power and even insulation, lighting etc in the future.

If you are now or are soon to be an assessor, want to improve your chances in making an honourable career in this field, give me a cooee on danielboonjp@gmail.com; I have a webpage http://www.energyefficienthomedesign.com.au that will provide a bit more of a profile of me.

Daniel

Posted Thursday 4 Feb 2010 @ 5:20:43 am from IP #
swanning_it
Member

You people who have spent hard earned money for this venture has my sympathy....but that's no help I'm afraid.

I wouldn't give up just yet though. As Tony Abbott has turned a pale shade of green with his new revised solar PV plan, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Milky Bar Kid and his sidekicks extend the obviously appreciated green loan incentive......if they're re-elected......

Posted Thursday 4 Feb 2010 @ 6:17:18 am from IP #
Bones
Member

West assessor , I wouldn't be so smug if i was you, you were just lucky to have your application processed before the end of the year, you know full well you could'nt fast track an application, wake up to yourself,

Posted Thursday 4 Feb 2010 @ 10:02:41 am from IP #
alfresco24
Member

To anna76
I asked ATA to remove your posts as you are patently (obviously) spruiking for assessors to fulfill your own company greed. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM NOT THE SOLUTION.

Posted Thursday 4 Feb 2010 @ 11:04:29 am from IP #
haldane
Member

Dear WestAssessor,
Although I admire your gumption I am a little concerned by your work rate. Each assessment that I do takes at least 2 hours at the home. In your post you mention that you have 26 booked for a single week??

I work for a company and at most do 2 assessments per day. An assessment on average would take 5-6 hours to complete as there is travel time, data entry, research and a follow-up call. As I choose to work with integrity my wage is approx. $400-600 week. It would seem that you are earning in excess of 10 X this.

What are you assessing? Are you an automaton following a tick the box routine?

I would like to see your "genuine interest in the environment" expand into a genuine interest in ethics.

Posted Saturday 6 Feb 2010 @ 12:20:41 am from IP #
haldane
Member

I have watched this train wreck of a program from early last year. The train hurtled along despite a faulty engine on bent tracks past the stations of stupidity and incompetence crashed through the parliament and after almost coming to a complete stop at farce is still trying to pick up passengers...

The scheme has seemingly ignored every aspect of project management as the published letter by Christine Milne outlines.

It is worrying that the project design for the solar credits / insulation / green loans have been without effective regulators and feedback loops to ensure ethical behaviour.
Each scheme has demonstrated the antithesis of a sustainable model and has ignored what could have been learnt from the other.

There is also a disturbing penchant in Australia for ripping off these schemes which in fact rips off every Australian.

It is simple just to point the finger at Garrett, but I would like to know more about DEWHA and the bureaucracy that he inherited. ABSA has been pathetic in communicating with its members and has left itself open to criticism.

I empathise with assessors who have entered this scheme and personally suffer the same travails. I don't advocate a simple chin-up she will be right attitude, but demand robust auditing with a suspension of all companies found to be operating outside guidelines.

The dodgy companies involved in these program are corporate welfare cheats. Suspended companies must face legal action, heavy fines and possible jail terms. A dedicated ombudsman might be a good start...

ASAP we also need to provide a system where households can rate their experience of an assessment and report any concerns along with random auditing of all assessments to uncover malpractice.

Posted Saturday 6 Feb 2010 @ 1:07:05 am from IP #
Anonymous
Unregistered

What I would like to know is: what does ABSA intend to do with the nearly (or over) $7 million it has collected from us in fees over the past year? I wish I'd thought of that particular money making scheme. SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS. They will bleat that some of that will be returned to some assessors. I will bet that it is only a very small proportion that will ask for the refund. Are the directors and employees of ABSA prepared to go on public record and declare their salaries and bonuses? Will they publish their accounts? Will they establish a fighting fund to refund the training costs of genuinely trained up assessors?

Posted Saturday 6 Feb 2010 @ 11:54:30 am from IP #
greenvalue
Member

Quote PaulE [Member]
"I tend to agree with Enviropoint... there can still be a very worthy industry come out of this fiasco... Sustainabilty Companies with assessment capacities have been around for a long time, but never with so much publicity as now. AS an assessor myself, I suggest we froget about Green Loans and look to ways to get this critical industry stabilised and moving forward.
There is a way!!!"

I, as hundreds, if not thousands, of other assessors would like to see this happen! But let us be realistic for a moment:
1. strong rumours, based on numbers allocated by DEWHA for newly booked assessments, have this program(me) collapse this week (between Wednesday and Friday)!
2. many people, who have trained late, or haven't had the time to hang on the phone for hours to get a few bookings confirmed, will not receive much/any pay from DEWHA for January of February!
3. a huge number of people involved in this hasn't a) recovered their initial investment, nor b) been able to earn any income to cover their living expenses. There are hundreds of assessors who don't have the funds to wait (or even less likely to train) for the promised new jobs after the Green Loans scheme has come to an end!
4. due to shoddy doorknockers, who just want to get as many assessments through as possible, people are currently pressured to have their houses assessed who wouldn't give a toss about improving it. Yet 1,000s of seriously interested householders will be left out cold with the door slammed shut in front of their face - because the number of assessments has run out they can't even get a Green Loan anymore!
5. there might be jobs to be had after this debacle come to a premature end. Let's be realistic: maybe one job for every 50 assessors currently working the Green Loans assessments... You just can't create this many new jobs for assessments, even with the best of training!
6. to carry out (for example) a business assessment, where I believe will be a much stronger market in the near future, you would have to possess completely different and much broader qualifications than for the current Green Loans scheme.

So back to square ONE:
a. everybody was mislead by DEWHA and ABSA
b. expect 1,000s of unemployed assessors latest in March
c. this is a case for the ACCC - to investigate the false promises prior to assessors signing their contracts
d. an inquiry by the Auditor General into the handling of this mess by DEWHA
e. and finally a Class Action by all assessors!

Watch the circus go on! Watch politicians raise their hands declaring no responsibility at all! Expect daily mud slinging and blame shifting! The entertainment for the coming winter (and beyond) is guaranteed...
Only shame in this case: it won't be much fun for all assessors involved.

Posted Saturday 6 Feb 2010 @ 9:22:52 pm from IP #
greenvalue
Member

Forgot to mention above:
I am trying to organize assessors into pressuring ABSA to provide free ongoing training for a number of assessors (with view of a Cert IV qualification), but this won't be for all involved because (see above) there simply isn't enough work for all... My argument: ABSA has received registration fees from 1,000s of people (most likely over 6 million Dollars) = do something productive with this money for your members!

Posted Saturday 6 Feb 2010 @ 9:27:42 pm from IP #
swanning_it
Member

Surely an end to the green loans, will be like the end to the solar homes programme? It will continue but as said, by the more interested participants. I don't see that as a bad thing. One fall down in the assessment programme is simply that no one is obligated to do anything about a poor house efficiency (in fact in my case, the assessment was what was poor, rather than the house).

Why not lobby ABSA into using collective bargaining power to arrange banks to develop new green loans (not interest free) but more along the lines of taking "green" savings into account when assessing eligibility. Readily available money is a key to people acting on assessments and in fact in needing (wanting) an assessment in the first place. Model it along the lines of finance for a car....arranged on site if neccessary by the assessor for a commission. That's easily done, but ABSA (or someone with clout) is required to prevent the "rip-off" financiers coming into play, charging exhorbinent rates and fees and worse still, encouraging assessors to partake in underhanded business practices.

Sort that out, and the green push through assessment, finance and change will continue.

Posted Saturday 6 Feb 2010 @ 9:47:05 pm from IP #
alfresco24
Member

To Green value
ABSA cannot create a CertIV qualification, 1) they're not an RTO, 2) no course exists under the national training framework and AQTF, and which are put together by a national training body assigned to the task, first.
This is 'kind of' happening at the moment with the construction industry skills council appointed to do it in consultation with the building industry around Australia.
I believe ABSA may be a minor contributor to that process.
There may be some early drafts released late 2010.

Posted Sunday 7 Feb 2010 @ 4:35:11 am from IP #
greenvalue
Member

"ABSA cannot create a CertIV qualification, 1) they're not an RTO, 2) no course exists under the national training framework and AQTF, and which are put together by a national training body assigned to the task, first."

That's NOT what I'm meaning: I would like to see some of our membership fees go towards providing part of the course expenses for ABSA's members, who are left hanging high and dry...

The course specifications and guidelines are, as far as I understand, being drafted right now, and should be released as early as late March, or in April/May.

Posted Sunday 7 Feb 2010 @ 4:54:58 am from IP #
lmc6666
Member

greenvalue - If you have emailed Christine Milne to support her moves for an Green Loans inquiry, she will have emailed back asking for ideas to help to try to achieve any positive outcome for assessors caught up in this mess. Like you I suggested a free training option for Cert 4 when available, for currently registered assessors, either through government or ABSA funding. This benefits the genuinely committed and interested assessors, without wasting taxpayers resources on the quick cash grab assessors who wouldn't be interested in a longer course with no clear link to employment. It would be interesting to see the number of assessors who took up this option if offered.

Posted Sunday 7 Feb 2010 @ 5:53:56 am from IP #
Ticker
Member

Qoute from Brisbane Times - http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/red-faces-over-green-home-loans-20100205-nikz.html

"Fieldforce's director, Mark Hubbard, said the company did have an ''IT interface'' to the department, which it developed with its own money."

Has FF got a direct link into the booking system?

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 12:52:48 am from IP #
alfresco24
Member

Greenvalue
I knew it wasnt what you meant, but your words were very explicit.

A draft for comment and consultation is due Q1/Q2 this year. A period of further work required will see this finalised and structured no sooner than year end. Even then it will be a soft start with only a few sections of the industry required to participate, by requiring new trainees to include the new learning within their courses to 'see how it goes'. But all this new learning will simply be absorbed as content within many existing building and construction industry courses.
It will not be a standalone course - certainly not at this stage.

Do I think that ABSA, DEWHA, Fieldforce and a few others should be held accountable - YES.
Will they look after disaffected HSA assessors? Maybe, but only if you make a big fuss about it and dont let it go.

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 12:59:43 am from IP #
whatcouldyoubesaving
Member

I have been contacted by these guys. They are looking for people interested in signing for a class action.

http://www.sustainabilityassessorsaustralia.com.au/

I have spoken to him and he seems quite genuine and honestly concerned about our future.

He has been on the assessor list since the beginning so he doesn't seem to me to be in it for the quicky..........

I haven't signed up myself yet but I am considering it.

To get your bookings in is almost impossible . Combined last week and this it has taken more than six hours total wait time to book two jobs..

Catch 22 cant do the job if you cant get an AN numbe.

Well you can but you wont get paid and they wont get a report.

Cant promise people to do the job if it takes four days to get a AN nu8mber.

Call center stuffed up my email address in early Jan until TODAY so is the first time I can log into calender

NOT HAPPY JAN

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 1:20:17 am from IP #
greennovice
Member

Every day seems to be a challenge being a Green loans assessor. Every morning at 6am (Perth time)get on the phone to try get some bookings in. Wonder what to expect on the
1800 number. Last week they cut you off after the voice recording and asked to phone later. Today the line doesnt seem to go through. And then if it does go through it cuts off after voice recording. Dont know whether to go doorknocking and get some work or sit at home on the phone. It is very, very hard being green. Patience I tell myself or should I be disciplined and pushy to get reults. But how do get results when you cant talk to any one. Well maybe after 5-6 hrs if I am lucky I may get through and talk to a human.
Wondering if the big companies have have a direct line to the callcenter.

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 1:22:14 am from IP #
gazgc
Member

lmc6666, I have a fwded email quote from the former director of the Green Loans program promising that anyone who did their training with an ACCREDITED TRAINING ORGANISATION (not cowboys) would get a free upgrade to the Cert IV course. Here's the quote:

“When there is a transition from one vocational course to another there is usually a
strategy put in place to manage the transition for key stakeholders through activities
such as a workshops, free training updates, grandfathering, or a program-wide RPL
assessment.
The Green Loans program has established the policy that once the national
qualification has been registered the Australian Government will provide all
registered assessors with the ability to upgrade their training to the new standard at
no cost. The training course developed for the Green Loans program has been
developed in anticipation of the registration of a national qualification. The units of
competency required by for accreditation under the Home Sustainability Assessment
Scheme may need to be altered to reflect aspects of the new qualification - but
assessors will be offered zero cost opportunities to undertake the necessary additional
training if that is the case.” Stephen Berry, Director Green Loans

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 1:27:20 am from IP #
whatcouldyoubesaving
Member

Gazgc.

Can you post the whole email and then we may have something each when the time comes ..

Just in case they move the goal posts..

Unlikely as that may seem.....

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 1:33:03 am from IP #
CNCandy
Member

Field force seem to have a direct IT line into the booking systems database, do some Google Searches I think it was on Senator Milne website actually.

They also seem to have their own booking numbers!

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 2:14:06 am from IP #
whatcouldyoubesaving
Member

http://christine-milne.greensmps.org.au/content/greencast/green-loans-debacle-abc-life-matters-int
erview

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 2:47:23 am from IP #
movin
Member

There already is a cert 4 in Renewable energies available for study, has been for several years. There are at least 4 other assessors I know who have been studying it for some time-at their own expense.

For example lets take just one aspect of a GL assessment reports recomendations and 1 study module alone, lets say Solar hot water-a 80 hour training module.
Other GL assessment report recommendations, Solar PV-another 80+ hour training module.

You dont have to look too far to see the worldwide results of another industry, where the standard that had alledgedly 'Trained financial experts' recommend loans to people who where never in a position to repay them. Not comparing apples with apples I realise, but a system is only as good as the information and intent that sustains it. Same intent with some organisations within the scheme & same result here as the the global credit crisis.
And then we have individuals like anna76 who hypothsizes that it is completely irrelevant what training or education you have. Hmmm, interesting theory.

Been trying to ring call centre since 9.am on the dot, zero response. 9.10-not even the recorded message, 9.40am just a beep. Lucky to get that I suppose.

Posted Monday 8 Feb 2010 @ 3:07:07 am from IP #

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