Are we serious? « Alternative Technology Assn Forums

Alternative Technology Assn Forums » Energy

Are we serious?

(45 posts) (13 voices)

Started 2 years ago by CunningPlansDept
Latest reply from GJOESQ

Tags:

« Previous 12

rockabye
Member

I think using Haiti and other third world nations as a comparison is like comparing apples and oranges at the current time. A technologically advanced world can reduce power consumption to very low levels and improve living standards.

That is, less pollution, better health, education and higher employment are a few likely outcomes possible, even for poorer countries like Haiti. In fact Haiti may be a good opportunity to show just what is possible with an almost clean sheet required to put it back together again after their terrible earthquake.

They are close to the world's biggest economies and their small size mean they have many opportunities for small scale solar and wind systems via short distribution networks.

Let's face it, the only way is up for them if we get it right. Here's hoping.

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 2:26:39 am from IP #
dymonite69
Member

Rockabye claimed:

"A technologically advanced world can reduce power consumption to very low levels and improve living standards."

I think you would need some more evidence to support this. Give me an example of a country with significantly lower energy intensity and equivalent or better living standards.

I think this speech made in 1957 summarises the issues well:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23151

It is a vain myth to believe we can have our cake and eat it too. If we wish to obtain a more sustainable future then we need to accept changes in our lifestyles that nobody (including you) could ever imagine.

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 2:59:21 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

I didn't claim it, I and many like me, are already doing it. Living standards in countries like China and India a rapidly rising. All because of technological advances in food production, medicine and energy use as a few examples. The population has trebled in that time.

As a coincidence, I was born in 1957. About the time TV was introduced in Australia, and Sputnik went into space. My father told me that his father said in 1953 that man would never walk on the moon. 16 years later we were there.

No it isn't going to be easy but it can be done. Yes you are right, living standards will change, but most will be for the better. Child and adult obesity in the US, Australia and the UK are reaching epidemic levels. Technology change in education and birth control will reduce poverty given the chance. People in Malawi now have mobile phones. Change is happening even in the poorest parts of the planet.

Vain myth, I think not. Your last sentence is absolutely correct. I imagine a better world, driven by change, optimism and hard work.

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 3:16:58 am from IP #
Frateco
Member

There is truth in what you are saying dymonite69 but rockabye has a point that is being put into fruition, Masdar.

http://www.anzses.org/files/Masdar.pdf
http://www.fosterandpartners.com/News/291/Default.aspx
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/industry-sectors/abu-dhabi-going-green/story-e6frg976-1111118084061

However, like all technological advances, lifestyle, education and habit will dictate how successful that technology will be to our future environment. If there is no social conscious to take action, then you won't improve.

I think of our "paperless society" when computers were touted as the best technological advance, yet look at how much paper is still being consumed.

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 3:22:41 am from IP #
questionman
Member

Rockabye, not all people on low income spend on alcohol, cigarettes, gambling etc. Many are living on very strict budgets limited to food and shelter, even without private health insurance, almost with no social life , and still thinking of how to reduce their electricity and other 'basic living expenses' bills. Not all people on low incomes are stupid and irresponsible. Your statement about people on low incomes is a generalisation based on some low income people. The truth is many low income people cannot afford the $3000 to $5000 after Recs and rebates of solar hot water system and cannot qualify for a green loan either, because they no capacity to repay. So what can they do to reduce their power bill besides reducing their usage of it. They have to make do with what they have, which is either a gas heater (the better) or their old electric water heater. The rebates and RECS is only useful if they have the $3000 to $5000 money to start with. What can they really do?

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 4:03:32 am from IP #
dymonite69
Member

Rockabye claims:

" I and many like me, are already doing it. "

Are you sure? If we only lived in a closed system....

All the good and services that you obtained to provide your 'self-sufficient' lifestyle require you to interact with an outside world that was created from modern industrialisation.

The technological developments that you benefit from were contingent on mature industries that required resources (including energy) to develop. Many of these things were created on the backs of cheap labour from the non-developed world. Then they needed to be transported to where you are.

You could try to grow ALL your own food like a subsistence farmer in Bangladesh. Alternatively specialisation has provided us a diversity of skills in this world to make things including your solar panels or run a commercial farm.

Come back to me when you can create a roof over your head, food for your mouth and comfort for your family purely from the sweat of your brow and the ground from your quarter acre block and then I will say that you are 'doing it'. And by the way don't get sick or injured because your doctor has given up his practice and trying to single-handedly run his organic farm.

You can create the illusion of an island but we don't live on one.

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 4:32:22 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

Your last paragraph describes my family almost perfectly about the time I was born in 1957. My father was a poor share farmer grubbing out a living on a wealthy farmers land for a pittance. We lived in a timber hut with no services like electricity or running water. The toilet was a can in an outside shed. I buried the contents every week as soon as I was old enough, from about 8 I think. We got electricity when I was 10.

My mother died shortly after I was born, a victim of golden staph caused by an old fashioned country doctor who didn't wash his hands after a minor procedure. She suffered major organ failure and we were too poor to afford the trip to Brisbane for dialysis, technology that would have saved her life. Dad was chronically ill with asthma, poor, only 2 years education 12- 14 during the depression, and he raised the four of us from then on. Technology improved his quality of life from about 1970 on. He died poor.

My generation was lucky, I got an education to year 10, my wife made it to year 9 before having to go to work because her father couldn't get a job. But it was good enough for us to get a reasonable job and we worked hard to raise our 2 kids and buy a house. Health care was better and we were smart enough to limit our family to give them the best education we could.

Moving on to this generation, our eldest at 24 has a masters degree in business and an engineering degree. He manages multi million dollar contracts for a living in the education sector. My second son is almost finished his biomedical science degree and is about to be making his contribution to the world. Most of this was on one income. No handouts or baby bonuses.

We are no island, we are part of a group of people making a difference. I owe to my parents to do better, to make sure we never go back to their 'self sufficient' world. The doomsayers and naysayers can harp on all they like about how it's hopeless the world is, but my kharma just ran over their dogma.

In 3 generations we went from a poorly educated, 2 world war nuclear Armageddon future to one which can see a better way forward. I'll back technology and optimism over denial and negativity anyday.

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 5:08:49 am from IP #
GJOESQ
Member

Very interesting discussion this. I too was born in 1957 but not anywhere near as poor as rockabye's family, but not wealthy either. Thanx for that window into your life.

My wife and I are trying to become more responsible for our lifestyle. We recognise that, in spite of the negatives we see in our modern 'developed' first world, there are many benefits. However, we are growing our own vegies and have a compost bin, just like our parents did, we have installed or are installing a SHW system, 2 kW of PVs and water tanks. We are starting up a Sustainability Street initiative in Phillip Bay this year. We are involved in Food Connect to try and reduce the carbon kilometres our food travels from farm to plate.

I meet with my local pollies to discuss matters of sustainability and government policy. I am a member of South East Climate Action Coalition, Permaculture Sydney South and Transition Sydney. I write letters to newspapers. We march in the Walk Against Warming and so on.

Will it amount to much in the big scheme of things? Probably not. If every Australian did this would it make much difference? Definitely!! If, through my example, 10 local household come on board, and then another ten for each one of them, then our efforts will not be in vain.

I do like the quote from Margaret Mead, "A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." This gives me hope.

We are not islands but we can act to isolate the bolder in our way using the "water principle" espoused in Hapkido. "When a rock is placed in its path, the water adjusts its course to flow around, over, or under the obstacle." In a similar way, we can undermine the rock of our intransigent society by working to erode it's power by by-passing it and finding an alternate way rather than confronting it head on.

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 6:30:15 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

Thanks GJ. I quickly checked your profile which mentions music. My youngest also achieved AMusA in saxophone before leaving school. Music is one of the human abilities that enriches the lives of everyone, even the very poor.

But I digress and realise this is off topic. Your approach is of course very commendable. I like your last 2 paragraphs.

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 6:41:43 am from IP #
dymonite69
Member

Rockabye said,

"My generation was lucky,"

Exactly. We are all lucky to live in a modern society with a high standard of living, small population, geographically isolated, that has never fought a war on its own soil, not been ravaged by malaria or AIDS, not known civil strife or corruption. We have a skilled workforce, plentiful resources, brisk international trade and a moderate climate.

An old saying is it takes money to make money.

It's good to hear a story of a person rising above adversity but that is only because of the opportunities this land provides us. Transported to another part of the world and the privileges we all enjoy could not be realised even after several generations.

Only 10% of the energy consumed in this country goes to residential uses. The rest goes to transport, primary industry and the commercial sector. Let us imagine a world without the latter.

"there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong." HL Mencken

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 6:59:20 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

I enjoy your replies Dymo, they make me think harder. It is only when our ideas and beliefs are challenged that we look for a better way.

Questionman asked a very good question earlier about how can low income people be expected to save power even if they don´t waste money of beer and smokes. The answer is with some difficulty. But usually something is achievable, start small. I write regularly to our local member urging energy efficiency programs to help low income housing commission dwellers as a way of demonstrating government commitment to a sustainable future. Medical cooling rebates and other subsidies are gradually appearing.

My older sister is on a pension and uses a disability scooter. She has little spare money. Yet when I visit many non essential things are left running in the house even when she is out. I talked her into the climate smart energy meter and help her whenever I can. I expect to see at least a 20% drop in power use over the year if all goes well. Time will tell. I´ve even hooked up her old scooter batteries to a couple of 24V CFL´s so she has lights in the many summer blackouts she gets.

To those who say it can´t be done I say, if we aim low we will definitely achieve our goal. We might all be going to hell in a handbasket but I´m going to have a lot of fun trying to change the outcome. I like quotes so hereś one that helps me.

Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude.
Thomas Jefferson

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 8:03:02 am from IP #
dymonite69
Member

Have you ever played with the eco footprint calculator. A fun little game is to try and tweak your answers so that your footprint only equals one world. This might give us some idea about what a more sustainable world would look like.

As you have indicated changes in societal expectations has to also accompany any technological advances to achieve anything worthwhile

For the moment I refer back to an old post I started a few months ago:

http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/technological-challenges-that-must-be-addressed-this-century

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 8:28:20 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

As my final comment on this topic I can only offer the words of Hans Rosling, Researcher uses his cool data tools to show how countries are pulling themselves out of poverty.

He demos Dollar Street, comparing households of varying income levels worldwide. As he says, the seemingly impossible is possible. see the link in the Movies Documentaries topic.

18 minutes of facts, inspiration and hope by someone who has actually been and worked in these poor countries.

Posted Thursday 11 Feb 2010 @ 5:41:19 am from IP #
dymonite69
Member

Sometimes the 'impossible' becomes the possible. But not everything is possible.

How society responds to a crisis will partly depend on their wealth. The elite will be relatively immune. The marginalised will suffer irreparable harm. The broad middle will adapt in different ways.

This is true whether from a interest rate rise, an economic downturn or a significant tightening of energy policy.

As a compassionate society our job is to ensure any changes also protect the most vulnerable.

Posted Thursday 11 Feb 2010 @ 6:14:43 am from IP #
GJOESQ
Member

I will be using this article: http://www.smh.com.au/business/handicapped-by-19thcentury-technology-20100202-nb3t.html found in the title post to this topic, to confront my NSW State Government member, Michael Daley, on Friday February 19 as part of the No New Coal campaign: http://nonewcoal.greens.org.au/ It is quite awe inspiring.

If anyone here happens to be a constituent of the Maroubra electorate and wished to join me, please email me <sustainability@exemail.com.au>

Posted Friday 12 Feb 2010 @ 11:48:07 am from IP #

RSS feed for this topic

« Previous 12

Reply

You must log in to post.