woke
Member
Hi
I want to generate power from solar generated steam, however trying to find a micro turbine that can handle 1-10kW of power that can be hooked up to an electrical generator seems to be difficult.
Has anyone got ideas where I could source such a thing, or do I need to build my own Tesla turbine for this? I think a car turbo wont generate enough torque, but happy to be proven wrong.
Any thoughts welcome.....
Cheers
Woke
Best reading I have found on the steam power is here:
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm
Others have tried to make solar thermal work on a small scale and found it difficult.
CliveMartin
Member
Hi,
I think this is what you are after, but they are not for sale yet!
I'm amazed I can't find a small steam turbine with generator (like the hundreds of available micro hydro systems) anywhere. I'm down to building my own. There are a few youtubes on home made gas turbines that you flog ideas from to make your own steam turbine.
The good folks at Factor e Farm are building their own open source solar thermal plant, so you can follow the progress of their system or contribute your thoughts here:
http://factorefarm.org/view/project/solar-concentrator-steam-engine-chp-system
Another source might be hacking a truck turbo and using oil as your working fluid. Or making a cheap steam engine similar to this whipper-snipper conversion from Dan at Greenpowerscience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOqWzefvlfg
Please post if you find something good! You probably will as soon as I start work on building my own!
Clive.
Greenozi
Member
I think that is great idea. If would could only find a source of cheap manufactured Tesla turbine 1-5kW, or traditional turbine that doesn't require extreme steam parameters. We can use multiple heat sources: solar, wood chips any wooden/plant debris, methane at farms (what a beautiful idea to clean bushes from flammable material and produce electricity at same time - before fire season start in Victoria!
What we need to find:
1. Cheap turbine - maybe adopted from discarded motor vehicle.
2. How to build cheap easy furnace with boiler.
2a) or how to convert solar energy into steam at home cheaply
3. Quality electric generators are already on the market, plenty to choose from low to high speed, at bottom rock prices - so that part is solved already.
And if anybody (woke) need a hand with project I happy comes to help.
I think that will be great idea if our ATA branch could organize 1 in month workshop, to meet at weekend at open space, discus and bring our crazy projects, test solar running, drink a beer, and have a picnic. See steam machine running, Tesla or Stirling. If only say Science Museum at Western Melbourne could host us or any private person could accommodate us on their property?
lwright
Member
Hi,
About a year ago I spent a lot of time looking into this without much luck. Doesn't seem to be much on the market.
I did get plans to use a car smog pump as a turbine & I bought a pump but no luck.
I think the problem you'll find is that the "Carnot Efficiency of low temperature steam (i.e. the maximum work you can extract is not very great below 450c). You would do better with a different working fluid like say Pentane (flamable) or one of the refrigerants.
Lee.
mizun
Member
Mizun Consultants & Engineers, India - design, manufacture, supply, install, commission Thermal Power Plants up to 15 MW single unit.
We have three manufacturing units:
One designs and manufactures micro steam turbines - 1,2,3,4,5,10,12,15,20,50(single phase 240V/50Hz) + 100, 125, 150,200.....2000 KW( 240V single phase 50 Hz OR 415V, 3 Phase 50 or 60 Hz).
Second unit designs and manufactures 3 MW to 15 MW Steam Turbines for captive or Grid application ( 415V captive or 33, 11, 6.6 KV grid).
The Third unit manufactures Steam boilers, water cooled condensers, etc suitable for our Turbines - up to 75 Tons of Steam per Hour at 65 Bar pressure and 530C Temperature. The boilers are fueled by coal, Gas, Diesel, HFO/LFO, Agro waste such as rice husk, wood chips, empty palm fruit bunches, olive flakes, etc,etc.
The micro turbines work on low pressure steams ( 10 Bar / 150 Psig)and can be coupled to a domestic boiler depending on the production capacity. The steam can be directed to your normal use after the power is generated.
Please contact mizun@ymail.com for any clarifications or more information.
Regards & Best wishes,
Mohan Prabhu
Vice President
mizun
Member
Our Turbines work on Steam. Lower Generation capacity require 10 Bar(about 150 PsiG) and higher capacity requires 45 or 65 bar Pressure.
How steam is generated is secondary issue.
We dont have the technology to use "Solar Thermal Heat". We are in discussions with a USA company for this technology. Solar Thermal Energy needs large tract of space to tap it, and in India land is scarce and hence no one had gone for it.
Till now we are in Steam boiler + Steam turbine Generator Units. if we can be of any service, do contact us.
Best wishes,
Mo
Greenozi
Member
I found another use for small turbine + boiler+ generator. Since very unlikely that will be economical for small scale solar there is another abundant energy resource. There is new fire season coming and excess firewood, flammable waste must be burn off and cleared. There could be design and build standard 20' container size compact for easy transportation, all in one machine consisting of boiler, turbine and generator. Delivered on farmer’s site this big furnace could burn all excess wooden scrap onside, send energy to grid. Thanks to this device farmers and CFA workers can clean fields from flammable material in safe manner with bonus of produced electricity. Device is portable, easy moved from place to place in the eclectic grid vicinity. Obviously pure economy is not enough to run such project, must be supported by university research and government support as a part of i.e forestry management. Another process utilized could be portable gasifier and then burning or collection produced gas. Similarly to mention above turbines gasifiers any size from small kitchen units to huge industrial are available from shelve at very reasonable prices and proven technology. Technology was used successful during Second Ward due to lack of petrol on both fronts.
http://www.orient-biofuel.com/
jason baptiste
Member
I have purchased a heating system for a home or business that requires no oil, gas, solar, or wind power which produces electricity. Can you imagine no fuel bill ever!
If you could get the wood boiler to consistently output pressurized steam, it's possible to use the excess heat off a wood boiler to produce the steam needed to power the turbine.
You can get 1KW to 10KW steam turbine for less than $200.00. The cost of adding a generator or alternator will partly depend on the size of the unit and the amount of power it can provide.
____________________
Greentech are specialists in a range of Gasification Boilers Services
rogeralter
Member
Where did you end up with this .
As i am looking to do the same thing starting with solar and i am a fridge mechanic so i was then going to use some refidge advantages to reheat the water to bring it up in temp, or even use fridge gas in the solar system, any ideas or help would be appreciated. email rogeralter@dodo.com.au
Have a look here. May be of some use.
Jeffbloggs
Member
davidton
You could also use a pyrolysis gas converter to produce syngas from your timber supply, and run it in a conventional gas converted combustion engine. My grandfather had one in WW2. Even reduces particulate emissions. A small external combustion engine aka stirling engine would be even simpler. Place whatever heat source under one end, cool the other...hey presto electricity from a one moving component device!
solar_lady
Member
In the event "woke" did not find or build a steam turbine for his solar project yet, I'd like to point to the online New Turbine Workshop at http://newturbine.phoenixnavigation.com where we are building a closed-loop 1-kW (approximately) steam/ORC Tesla turbogenerator designed by Ken Rieli.
If you follow the links back to our free Phoenix Turbine Builders Club, you'll find a lot of technical how-to information - DIY Tesla turbines, solar parabolic dish construction, etc. - but this is strictly do-it-yourself stuff. We do NOT sell off the shelf turbines or turbogenerators anymore.
Hope this helps - the global economy is so trashed, it's time for ALL of us get ready for the huge energy & fuel prices that are just around the corner.
argonaut
Member
There have been commercially available ORC generators from ARC Renewable for a couple of years. The evaporator could be fed by sat steam as long as its above 90C .... http://www.arcconsulting.com.au
wesleyj
Member
FREE ENERGY FROM STEAM. Personally I think steam is the best option for creating cheap or even free power. As an ex-industrial contractor I have witness steam used as a power source for many application least of which to turn huge power generators for power plants. I firmly believe anyone interested in connecting a simple centrifugal steam pump(which is nothing more than say a water pump that turns via steam) connected to a generator shaft is on the right track. Think of it this way, using a simple broiler you can build or buy you could create steam from wood, propane, natural gas a gasifier and lets not forget abstracting hydrogen from water is very easily done with a simply 12 volt car battery. Once you heat a broiler from any of these many methods you could in thoery have electric power, hot water and if you choose to go back to radiant heating you would have all your heating needs solved as well. I have had this in the back of my mind for a couple of years now and am hoping to start some experimenting soon. Any feed back from those that have either tried or considered such please speak openly. Thanks a mil.
wesleyj
Member
Please respond for wesleyj at pci1966@gmail.com
wesleyj, your suggestion should work in principle. However the final efficiency will be limited by the thermodynamic efficiency of conversion of heat into mechanical/electrical energy and by real world losses by friction, over voltage at electrolysis and other losses.
For instance even the most sophisticated steam turbines using super-critical steam achieve just about 45% efficiency. Low pressure steam and smaller, less sophisticated turbines will create much lower efficiencies. A simple centrifugal pump reversed as engine would be even worse.
Also hydrolysis of water into hydrogen and oxygen followed by recombination of the gases in a fuel cell has an overall efficiency of about 50% at best.
So after all, this concept of heating with 'stored' electrical energy, generated small scale from heat, may require at least about 10 times the energy that would be required for heating if using the fuel directly just for heat generation.
B.E.N.
Member
@ "solar_lady"
Anyone know THE MAIL ADRESS to this "Phoenix Turbine Builders Club" ??
( am I missing something here ? )
"Free to join -Very Easy: just send us your e-mail adress" = OK.... And just *where* do I send MY mail adress ? Are jo kidding me ?
@ "sun2steam"
He ("wesleyj") does write about "if you choose to go back to radiant heating.." which
indeed is a rather hesitant expression.
Still, such an arrangement will increase overall efficiency substantially.
solar_lady
Member
Hi B.E.N.
There is an email address (ptbc_AT_phoenixnavigation_DOT_com) on the "About Us" page at http://www.phoenixnavigation.com/ptbc/about.htm but I guess the link on the "Join the Club" page is missing. There is also an email link on the "Links" page - as well as the "Tesla Turbine FAQ", "Forum" and "Power Missionaries" pages.
Thanks for the heads-up! I will be updating the website soon with more news. And we look forward to your questions/comments.
peter69_56
Member
I work in the electricity generating industry and have a significant knowledge of steam power and generation.
My question to those who are considering doing this is;
What will your water source be for steam, and do you intend on using the steam after it has passed through the turbine? If so the water may be lost so you will require a significant constant supply of water to do this. If you condense the steam you will need to pump it back to the boiler and thus more gear needed and electricity used. This then starts to become uneconomical unless you are at the back of Bourke and have no choice as to energy. Water quality will require attention as if you dont look after the water quality your boiler will begin to scale up internally.
Superheated steam has more energy and more efficient. Preheating of the water and air to boiler from the flue gas helps too.
To operate the boiler you will also need a a certification from Worksafe, a licence to perform High Risk Work - Boilers as it is a pressure vessel (and turbine) and there is the risk of a significant explosion should the system be operated incorrectly or parts fail. If you chose not to be certified and it blows up you will be fully libel if someone is hurt or they find out you had a steam explosion. (The certificate is Australia wide now).
Not trying to put a damper on anyone getting into this as I think its great. Would love to do it myself, but you do need to be aware of the issues. If anyone wants more info about boiler/turbine operation I am more than willing to give you any info I can.
ormusgold
Member
Hi peter69_56;
Do you know whether a wet-steam boiler operating under 10PSIG is license-free, or if there is a class of boilers that can be operated wothout a steam ticket?
Cheers!
(I'm a new poster, and happy to have found this forum. My intended use for the steam is to feed a reiprocating steam engine (5HP) for a 15-metre multihull boat. Investigations show that piston engines are much more practical for low-power purposes; easier to build, can use low-pressure "wet" steam, and are safer to operate.)
peter69_56
Member
I am not totally sure and you would have to confirm it with the Worksafe people, but my memory suggests that anything that creates steam under pressure (other than <100C HWS) requires a pressure vessel ticket. Doesnt matter if its wet steam or superheated steam, that it is under pressure and if it explodes, or has a line break, the wet/superheated steam will turn into a larger volume of steam at atmospheric pressure causing significant damage. What you are wanting to use is similar to what many hospitals used to use, and still do. Their operators were required to be licenced. Same with the reciprocating engines, train steam engines etc. All are steam operated systems under pressure thus requiring a licence. See the links below and licencing levels. My understanding of the broad brush legislation australia wide is; If you design, run or have a pressure vessel or turbine/reciprocating engine and it explodes, causes damage or injury you are totally responsible as the owner, and without a licenced operator or not having the plant registered as high risk plant you are negligent and libel for significant fines as well as risking civil suit.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you require any further info.
http://www.steamtraining.com.au/
BOILERS & PRESSURE EQUIPMENT LICENCING
BAR Restricted Boiler Attendant
BAO Open Boiler Attendant
T10 Turbine Operator
S10 1st Class Engine Driver
S20 2nd Class Engine Driver
karmacoma
Member
On small boilers, it may be relevant to point out that 'live steamers' in Australia (the model engineers who run those miniature railways that kids like to ride) have a boiler safety code tailored to small sizes. I know of it but have no experience myself. I do know it is a very active field. Here are a couple of links:
Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee
http://www.pnc.com.au/~wallison/AALS/AMBSC/AMBSC.htm
Australian Association of Live Steamers
http://www.aals.asn.au/
It would be really interesting to see how solar steam generation might fit in with this.
peter69_56
Member
As karmacoma said there may be a licence applicable to smaller boilers that is not so rigerously examined with the obligatory 600 hours of experience on boilers. Worksafe could tell you. I am sure it would depend on the use, pressure etc, but they have the final say so would be able to accurately advise you.
ormusgold
Member
Thanks for the info and links, chaps; looks like it's not feasible for me to go down this road. Shame; steam is such a useful, simple and clean power source.
As karmacome says, it would be interesting to see how these regs apply to solar steam generation. I'd guess that the regs would be just as restricting, once the legislators notice.
ormusgold
Member
Further to the issue of pressure ticket requirements, I emailed Rod Mullen at Strathsteam about his boilers.
I've pasted the content below:
(snip)
----- Original Message -----
To: info@strathsteam.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 1:53 PM
Subject: steam ticket required?
Hi folks, would I need a pressure ticket to operate your marine boiler?
cheers, Don
Hello Don
No you dont.
Regards
Rod Muller
(end of snip)
His boilers are big enough to power engines for boats around 35 feet, so there must be some other provision here. I know his boilers have standards approval, so does the restriction only apply to home-made boilers maybe?
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