Hi all, just wondering whether anyone has had issues with lack of hot water. Briefly, our 3-person family has had an Apricus 30/315 installed for about 2 year. Seemed to work fine for around 6 months, then all of a sudden (during Winter) we notice that we are turning the boost on every week even in sunny weather. 18 months on, unable to prove a fault to my installer, I think the controller is cactus,as it pumps fairly regularly at night (warm nights) and today I noticed it pumping regularly during a drizzly cloudy cold day. Egads! Please help.
Insufficient Hot water
(31 posts) (11 voices)-
LanceTurner
Key MasterThis is becoming a common problem with split (remote coupled) systems. I have to say I'm not a fan of them at all, even though the industry seems to be pushing them. Yes, they are more convenient for maintenance in that you can easily get to the tank, but the added complexity of controller, temperature sensor etc negates that from an ownership point of view.
I'm a strong proponent of the KISS principle, split systems go completely against this. When you have a system (close coupled thrmosyphon) that works perfectly without these hassles, why would you install a more complex, more expensive and less efficient (due to heat loss in the longer pipe runs between panel and tank, energy used to run the pump and controller etc) system? It makes no sense, and I would only consider it on a heritage listed house where a roof mounted tank wasn't allowed.
Anyway, your problem sounds like either the controller isn't making sense of the inputs from the thermal sensors (thermistors or whatever they used) or the sensors themselves are giving false readings, which can happen if water gets into them somehow.
There should be info available on the specs of the sensors that you can check, if they are thermistors then they will have a particular resistance at a particular temperature, you can check this easily with a simple multimeter on the resistance range. Of course, the sensors may be something else, they could even be digital sensors like the DS18B20, which is a 1-wire thermometer IC, these are pretty common now but not sure if they are used much in domestic systems.
So, in short, yes, your controller is doing the wrong thing, but the reason for it can vary. You need to make your installer understand he needs to get off his butt and fix the problem, sounds like he is just being slack as he doesn't want to fix it...
Posted Tuesday 15 Jun 2010 @ 12:28:54 am from IP # -
Mikey45
MemberMany thanks Lance. I too had my doubts with the split system (same reasoning), but the sales pitch just seemed too good - now I'm stuck with it. I guess I'll just have to put up with it. I can't say I'm too happy about hitting up the installer - it seems to be a 'product' issue rather than an 'installation' issue. Oh well, I have to start somewhere. Thanks again.
Posted Tuesday 15 Jun 2010 @ 7:46:29 am from IP # -
olfella
MemberG'day Mikey45,
It sounds like you might have to investigate the accuracy of the reading being detected by your TANK temperater sensor. In a recent thread about AAE systems, I posted on having had similar problem of excessive pump activity & the solution I found for it.
'....There is one issue people might see as the weather gets colder with ET systems. Mine uses a 315ltr stainless Everlast tank which is well insulated,as are the pipes. What is not insulated on many systems, regardless of brand, is the actual tank outlet coupling, where the Tank temperature sensor is located. If it isn't insulated it should be, or it is likely temperature sensed will not be correct & the pump will run almost comtinually, particularly in the later afternoon when the ambient temperature is falling, but the tube still working well.
I noticed this problem on a friends system recently. Basically, if no hot water has been used for a while, the outlet fitting on the tank which houses the Tank sensor, will have cooled appreciably and register a tank temperature which could be as much as 20degC lower than it should. The result is the solastat controller sees the tank as being more than 12degC below the manifold & starts the pump. No matter how much it circulates the tank water through the manifold, the difference between the tank & the manifold won't get to the 6degC pump cutoff.
To get a correct tank temperature reading, one can open a hot water tap for a short time, which will bring the fitting containing the sensor back up to temperature, however this won't fix the pump duty cycle problem for long. The answer is to ensure the fitting & sensor slot areadequately insulated right from the tank to where the hot water pipe insulation starts. Easy to do with isulating foam from plumbing suppliers or even Bunnings, using a Stanley knife & some cable ties.....'Once winter came on, I found a number of operational problems directly related to deficiencies in the installation. Far too many plumbers think rough enough is good enough these days & cut corners. I'd downloaded & read the comprehensive installation proceedure document from the AAE website, (it's equally applicable to any ET system for that matter), but once I re-read it when I thought there was a problem, the importance of a number of matters addressed, but ignored by the installer were apparent.
Hope that helps.
Posted Wednesday 16 Jun 2010 @ 3:30:20 am from IP # -
Interesting question. The local brands don't seem to have a close coupled evac tube offering. You see them on eBay but they mostly appear to be low pressure units, some of which are direct fill into the tubes without any heat pipe at all. I don't know why there is a reluctance to try this configuration.
Posted Wednesday 16 Jun 2010 @ 9:02:02 am from IP # -
swanning_it
MemberWell there is this one that was mentioned here
http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/run-on-sun-free-evac-tubes-offer-to-qld-pensioners-too-good-to-be-true
but one of the points raised against it, was that it was close coupled.At the time I thought about it and saw that as a positive, rather than a negative.
Perhaps some more thoughts about it, may be handy?
Posted Wednesday 16 Jun 2010 @ 10:02:46 am from IP # -
Solgen
MemberOlfella, it is interesting that you mention the location of the tank temperature sensor. I have a Hills tube system and its instructions require the tank sensor to be located on the lower end of the tank near where the electric element is installed. This seems to me to be a good location as at this point you can access the tank surface but when the electrical cover is reinstalled the sensor should be getting a reasonably true reading of the water temperature without being influenced by outside temperatures. Of course it still depends on the sensor being correctly attached to the tank.
Our system works fine but I agree with Lance Turner that a close-coupled system would have been just as good and simpler and cheaper in both capital and installation costs.Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 12:48:57 am from IP # -
LanceTurner
Key MasterThere are not many evac tube close coupled systems nowadays and that's something the SHW industry needs to look at. If they keep pushing split systems, and those split systems keep failing (we are getting quite a few complaints nowadays, nearly all of them about split systems and pump controller issues), then solar water heaters will get a bad name and people will simply avoid them.
The only issue I find valid with close coupled systems is that the weight on the roof means that you often have to reinforce modern homes due to the use of flimsy pine roof trusses. But this isn't that big a deal, a couple of decent wooden uprights and you are done, generally. Even if it's more complex than that, it isn't rocket surgery...
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 1:22:34 am from IP # -
dave lawrence
Memberwhilst I agree in principle that close coupled systems (and KISS principles)are preferable there are several other valid arguments besides the "flimsy pine truss" argument .
Notably :
1 .old brittle concrete roof tiles.
2. OHS issues with access for maintenance.
3. replumbing copper pipes.
These issues ONLY arise in old houses . I agree in new houses there SHOULD NEVER be a need to use ANYTHING but a close coupled solar HWS. but the fact remains that for many people in an existing house the budget does not extend to additional changes to the house structure or plumbing system so they feel they have no choice but to utilize a split system.Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 2:25:15 am from IP # -
LanceTurner
Key MasterSplit systems are generally more expensive to start with.
Re maintenance, there's no reason why a solar water heater should require much more maintenance than a non-solar water heater. Some have sacrificial anodes in the tank, but that's only the enamel lined tanks anyway, a stainless steel tank has a longer lifespan in most cases and needs none of that maintenance. I would personally never buy an enamel lined system, there's no benefit. There are lots of older close coupled systems out there that never get touched and still work fine after a decade or more...
There's ways around the roof tile problem - either pass metal mounts through the spaces made by removing individual tiles and attach the mounts to the roof framing, or remove all the tiles and integrate the system into the roof.
The replumbing issue isn't one as far as I can see, with a split system you have to run two pipes from the ground to the roof, just as much plumbing as running the cold water line and the hot feed line to the roof for a close coupled system. Plus, with a split system there's also the extra wiring for the sensors as well as the pump wiring, so I can't see a split system being cheaper to install than a close coupled system.
What really makes me wonder about SHW system prices though is why they are so high. After all, I can buy a gas fired storage water heater for around $1000, and two solar collector panels for $1200, yet the cheapest 2 panel solar water heater is over $3000 and the average is over $4000. Why so expensive? There certainly isn't that much extra materials in them, and it's not like the manufacturers only make small quantities, so I have to say that there seems to be some profiteering going on. When you look at prices of systems before rebates were available, they were a hell of a lot lower, even accounting for inflation...
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 3:58:37 am from IP # -
dave lawrence
Membersome good points and I totally agree that a close coupled system is preferable. .....but what do you mean by remove all the roof tiles and integrate the system into the roof?
What are you proposing to clad the roof with ?
Do you know of any tiled roof houses that have had this done ?Re : maintenance and OHS , I was told by several plumbers that it contravenes OHS laws to allow anyone onto a roof of a certain height (3 metres from memory) without harnesses and/or scaffolding .. thus the simple task of replacing/ checking on a valve turns into a 10 act costly drama.
But your views about solar HWS costing are very interesting and I agree there is profiteering going on, but that should be no surprise.Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 4:45:11 am from IP # -
LanceTurner
Key MasterThere should be no reason why you can't use the shw system panel as part of the roof, the same way as is done with some PV systems. House roofs end up with all sorts of odd shaped things embedded in them without leakage issues, like skylights, vents etc. Sealing is a pretty common thing, that's what flashing is for and it's not exactly expensive stuff.
Bracketing should not be expensive, again, this is not exactly complex stuff, you remove a tile, bolt the bracket to the beam underneath and then flash around the bracket. Once you have 4 brackets in place, you add a couple of bearers across them and mount the shw system...
As for maintenance, I don't know (m)any people who even bother to maintain valves on hot water systems, shw or otherwise. Those that do probably wouldn't be aware or care about ohs issues (not saying this is a good or bad thing). Personally, I do all that sort of maintenance myself. If I fall off a roof, that's my problem and I should have the choice of taking that risk if I so choose...
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 5:36:05 am from IP # -
gully
MemberI further agree that close-coupled systems would be better. More efficient, less parts (manifold/tank all in one) less copper, less insulation - all better for the environment.
Everlast should make a roof-mount s/steel tank for evac tube systems!
The only real plus about split system is retro-fitting using the existing tank location, which is really only a question of cost. That and being able to monitor the control panel, but as people have pointed out - the controller, pump or sensors can all fail.
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 5:45:59 am from IP # -
olfella
MemberSolgen,
System has 3 sensors providing data to the controller: one mounted exactly as you describe, under the connection cover plate & bottom element & designated the Input sensor, the second inserted into the fitting right at the tank's hotwater outlet & the third into a sensor fitting on the outlet of the roof mounted manifold. Correctly installed & insulated, as the instal manual specifies, it works very well & efficiently. The main reason for the problem I described was that the Rough as Guts installer obviously hadn't read the manual, nor understood how the thing actually worked.
He installed in summer & his only observation was 'Cripes these things get hot up there!' If he hadn't installed the bars first, he probably wouldn't have burnt himself either. Old engineering saying..."When all else fails, read the manual."
Sadly, virtually all the systems I've seen have deficiencies, because the plumbers doing the installs took short cuts, left off lagging, didn't insulate where specified, didn't bother using the thermal compound when installing sensors etc. They've either not bothered to read the install requirements & see it as nothing more than a piping job, or have been screwed down on their subcontractor instal price by the suppliers & quite deliberately chop as much materials & labour as possible.As for this argument about close coupled systems inserted into this thread, no thanks. My tank requirements exceed the size of those systems & I don't wnat that much weight up on my roof & the terracotta tiles. The split system works fine IF properly installed.
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 6:03:45 am from IP # -
dave lawrence
Memberyou are right Lance there SHOULD be no problem. In the theoretical world there isn't.
In the real world , I see VERY FEW houses with doors and windows and roof penetrations ACTUALLY flashed as they should be according to Australian Standards and BCA (let alone manufacturer instructions).
That is without even considering the implications of imposing point loads on roof trusses NOT designed to take point loads .
I am not trying to be pedantic here ,I am merely pointing out legal/engineering issues.I also agree that if you want to take the risk of falling off your own roof you should be allowed to BUT the fact remains that there are tens of thousands of homeowners out there who WONT take those risks and who do want to DO the RIGHT THING but get frightened off by talk of liability etc . shame isn't it ?
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 6:05:42 am from IP # -
LanceTurner
Key MasterOlfella, unfortunately in the real world most tradies think they know what they are doing and do treat installs as just another plumbing job. So, knowing this, it is up to the manufacturers to make the systems more idiot proof. If they can't with their current designs, then they need to come up with something better. There are a great many close coupled systems out there that are still working long after split systems of the same age have been replaced because they have given so much trouble.
If you make a system more complex than it needs to be, regardless of the reasons for doing so, then you are going to have more problems than a simpler system. Sensors and pumps degrade and wear out, is a law of nature really, so the more things that can fail, the more they will, it can't be avoided, even with the best engineering, as it always comes down to the weakest link, which is often the installer...
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 6:28:13 am from IP # -
Buzzman
MemberThe elephant in the room is the purpose for getting a solar HWS in the first place - to reduce energy consumption.
If you have to run the booster every second day, it's hardly saving much.
And for some families (read most) reducing hot water consumption is not easy. Ergo, they need the biggest tank possible, or they still have to use the booster every second day. ANd when it's cloudy or wet, every day. So much for saving energy.
And the big tanks, 350L up, require major strengthening of the roof structure, which is not included in the recent govt grants.
So homeowners had to fund the carpentry work themselves and it became all too hard.
As olfella pointed out, many tradies are not taught properly by the manufacturers HOW to install the system properly, and even if they are, they elect not to do the time-consuming, expensive, or difficult stuff. Like pipe-lagging.
But the case of the temp valve being in the valve outside the tank and being designed that way....well, you have to ask yourself whose hand was on what at the time, really.
Better design would eliminate MOST of the "slack tradie" problems.
And frankly, in colder climates, it's probably better from an insulaton perspective to run the (properly insulated) pipes from the collector inside the roof space and down a wall cavity to the INDOOR tank.
This whole leaving the (barely) insulated tank outside is for the birds. I've owned two houses that had indoor HWS and the laundry room and garage they were located in were appreciably warmer than the rest of the house.
This is energy that just gets sucked off into the night sky if the tank is outside.
I do take your point, Lance, about the KISS principle of close-coupled thermosiphoning systems, but even the best of them is poorly insulated. 50mm thickness of glassfibre does not prevent much heat loss, alas.
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 6:48:52 am from IP # -
LanceTurner
Key MasterMost tanks are using up to 75mm of injected urethane foam nowadays, so insulation has improved. I would think that having a heat emitting tank inside the home is a rather big problem for most homes. Remember, most new homes have aircon but the internal walls are not insulated, so a lot of that heat transfers into the surrounding rooms, thus increasing aircon load. I would rather have the tank outside losing some of the heat it gained for free during the day than inside adding to the load on an aircon system, the electricity for which has to be paid for. Besides, ever seen the result of a mains pressure tank springing a leak inside a home? It isn't pretty if the tank isn't installed in a sealed tray with a decent drain to the outside. Ultimately, most hot water systems get replaced after the tank dies, many through leakage, so it's not something I would want inside a home...
Posted Thursday 17 Jun 2010 @ 7:03:49 am from IP # -
olfella
MemberLance & Buzzman.
Dead right better design would make instals more idiot proof. In the case of Everlast Stainless steel tanks used by Apricus, Hills, AAE & others, they could easily design a sealable location under the tank insulation. In fact I saw several instals where the plumbers must have known of the sensor location problem & drilled a 7mm hole through the tank's insulation at a tangent to the tank, then pushed the sensor covered in thermal compound, into this hole until it was in contact with the actual tank. They'd then sealed the hole with silicon. The problem with this is they've just voided the tank warranty without reference to the customer. It ought to be simple for Everlast to incorporate similar, but that would be too simple I suppose. Alternately, a properly designed insulation pack would be part of the instal materials. But that would put the selling price up they'd argue. Similarly, Everlast would probably argue any mod to their genetic tank is not their problem or cost.
Similarly, the damned mobs selling the systems could actually do post instal inspections, but they don't. You won't see or hear from them after the sale is signed, because their cutting costs & the contract passes from tradie to tradie without any project management at all. As it is passed along, each washes their hands of all responsibility. The subby plumber even collects the dough & issues the receipts!I actually tried to get a price to replace Mum's old roof cavity mounted Beasley offpeak with a similarly internally mounted tank to an EV system. The quotes were ridiculously high for a "non standard job"; frankly they just didn't want to do anything not quick & easy.
It is interesting this issue of saving energy. Everybody wants to do it, but the vast majority only do it to save money, or aviod increasing charges. The hip pocket rather than the enviroment is the main motivator. In the case of Electric offpeak storage hotwater systems though, Offpeak 1 tariffs see the annual all up energy cost is only about $160pa. Every time I pass a house with expensive SHW, I know I'm either passing a dedicated environmentalist, or a pretty crook accountant. Thing is I don't trust government & their so called 'Independent Pricing Tribunals' to fairly price anything. State governments just see utilities as revenue & cost centres these days.
Posted Friday 18 Jun 2010 @ 3:52:31 pm from IP # -
"frankly they just didn't want to do anything not quick & easy."
This why DIY everything is such a huge business. And even paying for "qualified" plumbers, carpenters and electricians is no guarantee of a good job.
I attended a BSA meeting last week on timber deck construction as I am interested in building one. They had a big segment on the 2 recent deck collapses in Qld where one person died and many were injured. Building inspections did not pick up serious construction flaws and they were handing out info packs on correct deck construction methods. As for regulation, there isn't any. Just the law suit when it all goes wrong.
Posted Friday 18 Jun 2010 @ 10:37:23 pm from IP # -
swanning_it
Member"As for regulation, there isn't any. Just the law suit when it all goes wrong."
The flipside of that coin is that just perhaps that's the reason why they collapsed in the first place! A good reason for regulations and legislation I'd say, but to surmise there are no decking regulations in Qld sounds a bit out there! My deck had to be engineer designed and certified (and inspected) before council would approve it..... perhaps the decks that collaspsed weren't even approved?? I don't know, just guessing!
Posted Saturday 19 Jun 2010 @ 2:51:10 am from IP # -
Actually they were approved and building inspectors failed to pickup the fairly obvious defects during pre-sale inspections. A question was asked during the presentation about better regulation and the answer given was people don't want to pay more taxes so it's not going to happen.
There are regulations, there is just no enforcement. It is a self regulatory environment and post defect legal action is the only remedy left to homeowners.
Posted Saturday 19 Jun 2010 @ 4:25:25 am from IP # -
swanning_it
MemberAh, so there are regulations! So it seems that either the regulations were complied with, but were insufficient or that the regulations were adequate and sufficient, but the private certifiers failed in their obligations to the clients and the public in general. I'd guess at the second one! Remember, private certifiers are a reasonably new way of inspections (at least here on the Gold Coast.....council pulled right out of certifications in 2006 or 2007). There will be a period where certifiers are certified, but do not fully understand the extent of their obligations. Unfortunately for the two involved in the colaspsed decks, they will probably find out the expensive way (with possible man slaughter charges against one of them). Eventually though, the private certifying environment will be far better for the public as the certifiers ARE legally responsible.........council inspectors have immunity from prosecution, though councils themselves don't).
Posted Saturday 19 Jun 2010 @ 4:47:49 am from IP # -
dave lawrence
Memberthere are also plenty of preexisting structures out there that were around long before building standards existed ,or were enforced. Sooner or later they may fail .
Similarly simply because a structure was engineered correctly, built correctly and signed off on does not mean it will stay in that state forever. there are little known concepts in the life of buildings called "periodic maintenance" and "repairs " and without them everything else amounts to zilch.Posted Saturday 19 Jun 2010 @ 6:15:04 am from IP # -
Like this one just 2 months ago perhaps. DIY or qualified tradesman at work?
The wooden deck connecting two demountable classrooms at Newington College in Stanmore fell through about 8:30am (AEST). Dr Mulford says the whole area will now have to be checked.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/04/27/2883833.htm?site=sydney
Posted Saturday 19 Jun 2010 @ 6:53:45 am from IP # -
Buzzman
MemberOr like the Juliet balcony I looked at on a house not far from me that was either a total bodge by a tradie, or had been done illegally by a previous owner.
The side bearers supporting the joist clips, and thus the entire floor, were made from 4 X 1 HWD coach-bolted to the side of the corner post. Not even trenched into the post.
If anyone had stood in that corner of the balcony they would have ended up 3m down astride the paling boundary fence.
Fortunately the new owner had noticed the 'loose board' and called someone before they tried to walk on it. Luckily, they called me.
Posted Tuesday 22 Jun 2010 @ 7:40:26 am from IP # -
Wow, this is what I call thread hijacking!
Could you guys please open a new thread about building decks.This would help to keep this thread on the subject (Insufficient Hot water ... you remember?)
And anybody interested in decks could find it directly without reading everything about hot water.Posted Tuesday 22 Jun 2010 @ 9:02:23 am from IP #
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