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LED downlight comparison -Erroneous Claims

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Started 1 year ago by Greennerd
Latest reply from dymonite69

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Greennerd
Member

I am absolutely amazed at the current claims of light outputs for many LED downlights I have seen first hand and on the net.

So lets just establish that 50W halogen has 900 lumens of light as per GE and Osram standard units.
However I am seeing these LED's that claim they are the same that don't even come close. In-fact they are so far from close that it can only be called a farce.

Heres some of the spin doctors

Neco: "Same light as a Halogen" http://www.neco.com.au/index.php/led-lighting/ These guys have a 5W 285 Lumen MR16 bulb! Are they completely mad? This claim is not a small exaggeration its our by a multiple of 300%.

Superled: "Same light output as a standard 50W halogen" Advert in infolink magazine edition 91: There Eco 12 that they refer to in the ad is 480 lumens. Sure this is the "same light output"!!! on another planet maybe. Thats half of a 50W halogen which is just plain ludicrous also they claim dimmable on 240V but its all 0-10V after a 240V input...this is exaggeration on a whole new level.

LED central: "the brightest LED light on the market outputting the closest light output to a 50watt halogen": http://www.ledcentral.com.au. This ones a doosy. They are using the Cree MC-E as they say themselves on the site. Now they claim 500 lumens (400 lumens short of a 50W halogen) but the Cree site for this chip says its more like 280lm for a 3000k (the same as Halogen) - http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_mce.asp. Keep in mind this unit has a lens on it which averages 10% loss so we can safely say 252 lumens!!!! Thats half the claim only 27.9% the light output of an actual 50W Halogen.

They also have this bit of gold http://www.ledcentral.com.au/online-store?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=69&category_id=20 as 700 lumens.
The chip they say is acually only 73.9 lumens at 3200k according to Cree themselves at this site: http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp7090_xre.asp with 5 chips in this light that 369.7 lumens minus 8-10% for the lens which gives a best case scenario of 339.94 lumens.

Just to reiterate thats a claim of 700 lumens and an actual of 340 lumens. What The?!

And it does not stop there:

Hero Led
Claim: 900 lumens
Actual: 230 lumens - http://www.hero-ledstore.com/led-light-bulb-c-1.html - 230 lumens

Todae
Claim: 675 lumens
Actual: 288 lumens
http://www.todae.com.au/Products/winterecoideas/65wgalaxisleddownlight/

Spectrumlighting
Claim: 810 lumens
Actual: 230 lumens
http://www.spectrumlighting.com.au/energy_efficient_globes.php

How this is happening without any consumer protection intervention I have no idea, but until they do get their act together I implore you to spread the word and hassle these companies to prove themselves with independent testing data of the actual finished products.

And if anyone has found an LED company that is doing as they say I'm all ears.

Posted Tuesday 20 Jul 2010 @ 3:10:19 am from IP #
Diver
Member

Deceptive advertising and unsubstantiated claims which mock section 53 of the Trades Practices Act are widespread across many industries but does the fault lie with a toothless ACCC or an apathetic public?

Posted Tuesday 20 Jul 2010 @ 3:25:57 am from IP #
LanceTurner
Key Master

There's a couple of issues here. Firstly, they, like most others, are confusing light intensity (ie lux) with lumens. Many of these LED bulbs do have the same on-axis intensity as a halogen, but that's because they have narrower viewing angles. So, for task lighting they can be a direct replacement and still provide the same light levels at the work surface, but the light spot is smaller because the total light output is less.

Re the Cree output figures, you're reading the data wrong, notice the lumen figures on the Cree site are listed at 350mA whereas the max current for an MCE is 700mA per chip, so max output is actually double or close to it. Most power LED makers list their output at 350mA as this has become a defacto industry standard. Same goes for the XR-E, max current for those is 1 amp (or maybe 1.5 amp now, you would have to check the datasheet). Also, those figures are average figures across brightness bins and are pretty conservative. For instance, it's almost impossible to get P4 cool white bin XR-E LEDs now, I order P4 and get Q2-Q4, much brighter.

But yes, in total light output, no MR-16 is on par with a 50W halogen yet although some that use active cooling are getting close. But there are LED downlights like the D900 from Brightgreen that are equal to a 50 watter.

Overall, my experience has been with LED bulb suppliers is that most don't have a clue about the difference between lux, lumens etc and tend to confuse figures. Many also stretch the true deliberately, rather than out of ignorance. The other issue is bulb design, most LED bulbs have drivers that use electrolytic caps. These have a short lifespan when run at elevated temps like those found in LED bulbs, so you end up with bulbs with 50,000 hour lifetime LEDs that fail because their drivers last 5000 or 10,000 hours due to failed electros...

It comes down to slack engineers and cost cutting to meet consumer expectations of low cost - the people are getting exactly what they are demanding, ie compromised designs...

Posted Tuesday 27 Jul 2010 @ 2:54:02 am from IP #
Neco_LED
Member

Appreciate the comments made about our LEDs. I would like to make the point, however, that we do not for one moment claim that the lumens (brightness) of our LED is the same as a halogen - it's not. When we claim that it is the same "light" as a halogen, what we mean is that it has the same optical effect. That is, for most people, the light produced by our MR16 LED is sufficiently good enough to replace an MR16.

We've sold hundreds of our new Neco MR16's and we have many happy customers. They love the competitive price, low wattage, long life, reduced heat and money-back guarantee. So rather than putting us down for trying to make a difference, acknowledge that we may have found a product that is pretty good!

Posted Thursday 29 Jul 2010 @ 12:46:03 am from IP #
munter
Member

Hi Neco - kudos to you for coming to defend your product. Can you understand that customers might interpret "the same optical effect" as meaning a light of equal brightness?

No doubt you guys are doing good work with LEDs but this might be a good time to listen to the concerns of your customers.

Posted Thursday 29 Jul 2010 @ 3:16:46 am from IP #
dymonite69
Member

Customers just have to ask a few simple questions to compare the technical performance luminaire. This prevents subjective opinions of 'equal brightness' or 'performs similar to halogen'.

a) Centre of beam lux
b) Beam angle
c) Colour rendition (CRI 100 being closest to natural daylight)

Lux is 'brightness' measure in lumens per m2 (lighting power).

Lumens gives total lighting power in ALL directions. Given the same lumens, light appears brighter if concentrated in a small area i.e. high lux. That is why a flashlight can have less lumens than a household light bulb but illuminate a distant object.

Posted Thursday 29 Jul 2010 @ 7:05:28 am from IP #
LanceTurner
Key Master

Dymonite, I think you are overestimating the knowledge of the average consumer, most have no idea how light is measured or what a Lux or Lumen is, nor do they care, they just want to buy a bulb that works as well as the previous one did, they don't want to have to think about it. Hate to say it, but people in the western world, especially Australia, despite having more information at their fingertips than ever before, seem to be becoming more ignorant by the day. That is what happens when life becomes too easy and everything is done for them I guess...

Posted Thursday 29 Jul 2010 @ 7:57:29 am from IP #
ghostgum
Member

The problem is that vendors do not make the necessary information available.
In addition to the 3 parameters suggested by dymonite69, we also need the lumens, and power consumption.

With these you can determine if the vendor is selling good products, and whether they will be suitable for the purpose. Without them you could be buying unsuitable rubbish.

Posted Thursday 29 Jul 2010 @ 8:04:24 am from IP #
dymonite69
Member

GG - You can calculate lumens from lux and beam pattern. For practical purposes people either choose a spot pattern or omnidirectional luminaire. If it the latter than lux is directly proportional to lumens.

Lance - smart eco buyers ask the smart question. There is too much greenwash nowadays.

Posted Thursday 29 Jul 2010 @ 9:31:22 pm from IP #
ghostgum
Member

dymonite69, you appear to be assuming that the beam pattern will be accurately specified.

There are very few truly omnidirectional luminaires, and the same for (LED or fluoro) light sources.

Posted Thursday 29 Jul 2010 @ 11:15:58 pm from IP #
LanceTurner
Key Master

Dymonite, smart eco buyers will indeed make the effort and ask the right questions, but do we want to limit the market just to the 5% or whatever of the population who make the effort? If a bulb is said to be equivalent to a 50 watt halogen then it must be equivalent in total light output, not just directional intensity, after all, most halogens are used as general illumination (even though they shouldn't be).

Posted Friday 30 Jul 2010 @ 1:33:52 am from IP #
PV2010
Member

Through work I have had the opportunity to review various halogen replacement technologies and focused on LED and fluorescent. Many of the LEDs certainly made spurious claims, I looked at total light output, beam intensity,CRI,kelvins etc. Of interest was poor colour matching, warm white was more often warm pink. I saw some good 16W LED fittings, but the fitting diameter was a little larger than the standard 75-80mm cut out. Also it was a whole fitting rather than a retrofit

In the last month I have seen some quality products come onto the market, manufactured by one of the largest multinational lighting corporations (and oldest). The MR16s swap straight over for a halogen (no dimming) and use the existing transformer, so far the micro fan cooled 4W(20W) and 7W(35W) have proved effective replacements, the beams are a little narrower than the standard 60 degree, but all in all it is a nice fit. The 10W (50W) is expected around the end of August so if one can get excited about a light globe then I'm excited. I also have a 7W GU10 (same company) which is dimmable I have not tried this yet, hopefully it will be better than other products currently available .

There are certainly a lot of snake oil salesmen out there peddling shoddy goods. However a Powermate and lux meter make short work of spurious claims!!

BTW: I have also installed LED fluorescent (36W) replacements, the PF has improved and energy consumption reduced from 41W to 19W. So far they have been operating for 6 months without any problems. kelvins matched to tri-phosphor warm white and cool daylight

Posted Friday 30 Jul 2010 @ 11:16:08 am from IP #
energyassessor
Member

PV2010 - I am sad enough to be excited about halogen replacements. I have at least 25 in my home (not installed by me) and I would love to replace them. Could you tell me where I could get these new ones you discussed? I have the $50 Green Reward card for my energy assessment and would like to spend it on these. Unless anyone else can suggest ones that are currently available that would be suitable replacements for my 40w halogens?
thanks for doing all the hard work for me experts! I would love to be well informed about lumens, etc but since I had kids my brain has turned to mush and I just can't retain any of this info!

Posted Tuesday 10 Aug 2010 @ 1:44:05 am from IP #
youreanidiot
Member

After trawling over many LED suppliers sites I have finally found some independant, yet technically advanced info from here. I must admit that the task of switching my halogen globes to LED is nearly driving me to the nearest psychiatrist.For the average consumer who wants to make a difference, the process is quite labourious.
I agree it shouldnt be dumbed down, I would like to know the specs.....but if its made to in-depth then the risk of scaring away the consumer is greater.
I am going to replace ALL my globes...but the thought of forking out $600-1000 and finding that i now have insufficient light would mean an instant painfull death from my wife.

So...all I'm seeking is some guidance. Whether or not to switch to a more energy efficient halogen and wait for better LED technology.Or if someone can recommend a product that, whilst may not provide an exact replacement, would suffice but not break the bank.

Posted Tuesday 10 Aug 2010 @ 10:50:02 pm from IP #
ghostgum
Member

I would suggest waiting a few more years for prices to come down and light output to improve. Even then I think the better solution will be to replace the entire downlight fitting to an integrated LED fitting (with a decent sized heatsink above it), rather than a retrofit LED "bulb".

For the moment, exchanging the 50W halogens for more efficient quality 35W halogens is a better solution. Turn off the ones you aren't using, and perhaps use LED lights in the few places that are left on for long periods as ambient light (e.g. passage).

To others, if you are building or renovating, don't put in halogen downlights without considering the alternatives.

Posted Tuesday 10 Aug 2010 @ 11:30:01 pm from IP #
Anonymous
Unregistered

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Posted Wednesday 11 Aug 2010 @ 2:05:23 am from IP #
LanceTurner
Key Master

Replacing the whole fitting is what I recommend, the bulbs are always going to be a bandaid solution. They are totally different lighting technologies with different requirements, so the ideal fittings for each are very different.

I would suggest replacing a couple of fittings with decent LED units and see how your wife likes it. Once she is happy with those fittings, you have ammunition to push for doing the rest

Posted Wednesday 11 Aug 2010 @ 2:47:58 am from IP #
ghostgum
Member

Following on from a posting in another thread, Brightgreen do appear to give adequate information on their D900 fitting, giving CRI, power, lumens, beam width, and lux at different distances.
However the output is still only 56 lumens per watt. Hopefully they will update the LEDs and give either double the light output, or more appropriately half the power consumption.

Posted Friday 13 Aug 2010 @ 3:46:28 am from IP #
Richy
Member

Hi, I've just installed one of these http://www.pierlite.com.au/au/16284/lite-master to replace a 50Watt 240V GU10 Halogen in my walk-in pantry at home. It comes as a complete fitting including a Constant Current Driver. The like output and quality is BETTER than the 50 Watt GU10 it replaced. It is a crisp, white light with excellent clarity. (Halogen's have that yellowish "warm white" tinge). It isn't cheap however - about $100.00 from my local electrical wholesaler.

Posted Monday 16 Aug 2010 @ 12:57:20 pm from IP #
youreanidiot
Member

Has anyone heard/tried the 50w silverbacks from Efficiency matrix. Have brought some osram energy savers but they are 36deg width. And seem to spot the living room and not cover it with light. Happy to have less light but need a more even distribution

Posted Saturday 21 Aug 2010 @ 4:25:04 am from IP #
LanceTurner
Key Master

The silverbacks are 35 watt halogens, so a bit of an improvement, but not much really...

Posted Saturday 21 Aug 2010 @ 8:10:17 am from IP #
scottdubli
Member

Hi, I've just installed one of Brightgreen's D900 with 45deg beam and are more than 100% happy.
The 50 watt downlight that it is replacing was of reasonable quality but the D900 has better light output by some notable amount.

Posted Tuesday 31 Aug 2010 @ 12:51:38 pm from IP #
Anonymous
Unregistered

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Posted Monday 6 Sep 2010 @ 7:59:35 am from IP #
cool at home
Member

We've recently replaced our downlights with LED - some were 240 and some 12V. We're happy with the light output of Cree 3 x 3W, warm white ($32 each on eBay) and the colour is reasonably close to halogens, which we like. And much better quality of light than the CFL downlights we've tried.

We've tried Neco LED versions, cheaper but dearer postage made them virtually identical in price, but the colour is 'greenish' (all 4 of them), and we just can't live with it. A couple of other brands have been hopeless in both light out put and colour.

Would love to try the Brightgreens, but just can't afford them.

Hope this is useful to someone, like me, struggling to find a LED downlight they like without breaking the bank.

Posted Monday 6 Sep 2010 @ 11:10:25 am from IP #
LanceTurner
Key Master

Deal Extreme is still one of the best suppliers of a range of lamps, I've tried

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30208 and http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39027 and they are working well (in open air fittings though) so far...

Posted Tuesday 7 Sep 2010 @ 2:55:31 am from IP #
MikeD
Member

I have just outfitted my new house with Brightgreen D12 warm white downs and am extremely happy with them. The light quality is fantastic and in living areas and passage ways I have done a 1 for 1 replacement with 240V halogens and have found them to lack only marginally in luminosity, but not to the point of being too dim. I got them for $89 per fitting which I admit is expensive, but having downlights using a measly 12W each is a massive saving in electricity usage. They also look great! I highly recommend them.

Some advice would be to watch the narrow beam angle (45º) - i.e. don't space these ones further than 2m apart or you'll end up with dark spots unless you have high ceilings! Apparently the new Brightgreen 16W D900's have a beam angle of 60º similar to halogens, but come at a price of $140 per fitting - I didn't get a house quantity quoted but these would exceed my budget anyway. These are supposed to be able to replace halogens with no loss of luminosity.

I got them from One Earth http://www.oneearthoutlet.com.au/Products/Lighting/LEDs/

Posted Saturday 11 Sep 2010 @ 4:36:22 am from IP #
Rebecca Miller
Member

We're building a new house and the plans call for 12 halogen downlights. We'd like to replace them with dimmable LEDs but the builder is concerned that with the height of the raked ceiling (up to 3.6m), LEDs will be too dim. He's also said Australian Standards require the same amount of insulation space around all downlights, including LEDs. Is that correct? If so, are downlight covers appropriate with LEDs?

I'm looking at Brightgreens D900s or would the D12 be better? Has anyone used these in large areas with high ceilings?

Posted Monday 1 Nov 2010 @ 12:23:32 am from IP #
Lance
Key Master

I have to ask, if you are building a house, why are you going with downlights, especially on high ceilings? All downlights cause a break in the insulation, you can get around it with insulative covers etc, but that just adds to the cost and is a bandaid measure. The best solution is one where you don't break the insulation at all.

Your builder is working on his knowledge of LED replacement bulbs, many of which are not very bright, but as has been stated in the posts above, dedicated LED fittings are as bright or brighter than halogens. Your builder just needs a bit of experience with the newer LED solutions.

Posted Monday 1 Nov 2010 @ 1:52:47 am from IP #
ghostgum
Member

With our high ceiling (raked 2.7-3.6), we used several types of fluorescent lights. LED lighting was not good enough when we built the house.
Over the kitchen bench and dining table we used several pendant lights, using a 23W compact fluoro. The light fitting is glass cylinder 100mm wide x 400mm tall, and you can't easily see that it contains a fluoro. It provides good cooling for the compact fluoro, so the integrated electronics should not fry. Using a pendant puts the light closer to where you need it (great over the kitchen bench or table), and so less power is needed.

Over the sitting area, we put recessed compact fluoro lights using PLC tubes. Unfortunately this puts holes in the insulation as described by Lance (larger than are really needed), but we used glass fronted lights to prevent heat loss by convection, that you would otherwise get with an open downlight. On the negative side, the glass scatters the light sideways, so there is a bit of glare. It's good sitting under the lights, but not at the other side of the room.

For room ambient lighting, we have T5 fluoros above the pelmets (uplighting) which extend around two side of the room. Longer term I'll put some LED lights in there as well, for lower level lighting and much less power.

Recessed LEDs will need insulation space around the light, because they need to run cool. They won't need a large space around each light. If you can do it, a larger but flatter light fitting on the surface is more energy efficient. Lance has built one of these into an oyster light fitting.

Downlight covers are not suitable for LEDs.

With high ceilings, you may need a narrower beam. Alternatively, a wider beam will result in more glare but better overlap and less shadows.
There is a lot of scope for lighting designers to make some really good looking LED lights, but they will look different, and the designers have to be brave.

Posted Monday 1 Nov 2010 @ 3:10:54 am from IP #
MikeD
Member

You might be right on LEDs being too dim. When your house has ceilings up & is painted I'd ask a retailer if you can borrow a D900/D12 overnight. After dark get as close to the ceiling with it as possible (I just held the light up while on my ladder) and check out the light, beam angle and intensity. Also get someone to stand under the light to check it out. You may need to have less spacing between each light fitting to compensate for any lack of intensity adding to cost and power consumption.

As for insulation, I believe Lance above is correct. I've read that you shouldn't top insulate LEDs but they refer to the LED replacement bulbs for halogen fittings. I know LEDs shouldn't run hot (they don't produce much heat ~30ºC - warm at best). The retailer told me that they don't need "as much" spacing in the insulation. You can get covers for them - the retailer tried to sell them to me. I don't know what the Australian standard practices are for installing them are though.

I'll check out how the electrician installed them at my house when I'm back there.

Posted Saturday 13 Nov 2010 @ 10:12:41 am from IP #

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