At my house the kitchen, dining and living area is 11 x 6.5m (it's one room) and ceiling is 2.9m high. I've lit a third of this room using 6 D12s on a dimmer. The light is nice, definitely not bright but you could still read under it no problem. My ceiling is white, walls are a pastel green (Wattyl "sand drift") and floors are Marri timber.
LED downlight comparison -Erroneous Claims
(50 posts) (28 voices)-
Lance
Key MasterYou are not allowed to insulate over any downlight, you have to used approved covers and insulate up to them.
LEDs do produce considerable heat, you can't put a spcific temperature on it as the temperature rise depends on a number of factors, including bulb power rating, bulb design, heatsink surface area and finish, fitting type, proximity of downlight cover and how well that downlight cover insulates. It's not uncommon for a LED bulb or fitting to run around 70 degrees, but if you insulate them they will run a lot hotter and will either fail or the driver will shut them down due to excess heat.
Posted Saturday 13 Nov 2010 @ 12:28:00 pm from IP # -
Benny
MemberHow are you going with your design/builder Rebecca ? AS Lance said - I think you should really reconsider the use of downlights. I know people think they look architecturally nice and modern but at what price ? - both capital and ongoing. If you are looking at 12 fittings and possibly brightgreen D12 - that could be 12 x $140 = $1680 !! What about going back to the old pendant style ? The LED bulbs look great, can be on extended cords to get the light well below the high ceiling, some come with wide beam angles so you need fewer fittings and can be fitted with all types of lamp shade/diffusers.
I think architects/builders are the main ones to blame for the current profusion of halogen downlights which as many here are finding are very difficult to successfully change over to LED without scrapping the whole lot and starting again. Even then you're left with a pile of fittings and transformers.Posted Monday 15 Nov 2010 @ 2:33:57 am from IP # -
sandystone
MemberOur 36m2M loungeroom is lit using 2 x old photographic floor lamps retrofitted with 2 x 18 watt CFLs. It is well lit, creates a very nice ambience, and absolutely no glary hotspots. total cost about $12 for the bulbs and the garage sale lights- about $50 for the pair. so a very cheap and effective system.
The crucial point is the uplighting onto the white ceiling.
The same effect could be achieved with LED uplights.
Uplighting onto a white ceiling is what makes a efficient compared to downlighting.
Try it out with any floor or table lamp fitting.Posted Monday 15 Nov 2010 @ 2:47:25 am from IP # -
OptexSolar
EcoOnlineUplighting is an interesting point, but I wouldn't use LEDs for this, they are too expensive and the ceiling, while reflecting 90% of the light will scatter the light in all directions. Also LEDs globes need the "funneled" air movement through a downlight hole to cool them, not sure if they wouldn't overheat without this.
I've got 5W LEDs globes in my downlights but I need to combine them with 2 14W CFL stand lamps which uplight the ceiling and walls. The combination works really well. LEDs have a slightly narrower beam and don't light walls as well as Halogens, that's where the stand lamps come into it. All up I've got 4 x 5W LEDs + 1 x 14W CFL lighting the living room area and 6 x 5W LEDs + 1x14W CFL lighting the kitchen, total rated wattage of 20+14+30+14=78W producing an equivalent of about 390Watt of incandescence light.
Posted Monday 15 Nov 2010 @ 5:23:51 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterLet's try not to confuse LEDs with LED bulbs, there's a vast array of LED bulb sizes, beam angles and shapes, any lighting you can do with other light sources you can do with LEDs, you just have to do it properly using the correct bulbs and/or fittings...
Posted Monday 15 Nov 2010 @ 5:29:06 am from IP # -
Anonymous
Unregisteredi fitted my house with lights from http://www.brightlightautoparts.com they said the mr16 had a 40watt halogen equivelent and i was more than happy with the light output and they also sell the drivers and all are ce approved.
Posted Thursday 18 Nov 2010 @ 3:40:11 am from IP # -
Silicon-Surfer
MemberI have a lot of experience with LED luminaries and have also tested numerous LED replacement lamps and downlights. I can tell you that most products I've looked at from companies promoting halogen replacements (unless they're large well established manufacturers) are typically vastly exaggerated.
It's common for manufacturers/resellers to claim that a lamp is equivalent to a 50w Halogen but they don't usually say what sort of 50w halogen. There is a big difference in the lumen output between a 240v halogen reflector lamp and a low voltage MR16 lamp. A good quality (GE, Philips, Osram etc) MR16 50w lamp produces about 1000lumens. Osram IRC (infrared coating) and Philips ES (energy saver) MR16 lamps in 35w also have about 1000lumens output and are an energy saving alternative to using 50w LV lamps. An OSRAM IRC 35w lamp has a power consumption of about 37w (including transformer) and produces about 1000lm, so it's efficiency is about 27 lm/w (Lumens per watt), and a 50w (non ES/IRC) lamp is about 18lm/w. 240v Halogen reflector lamps are lucky to be above about 12lm/w and will probably be banned in the next 2-3 years as incandescent lamps have been.
Typically lamps of the retrofit type (plug straight in to a downlight in place of the original halogen lamp) have outputs in the range of 100-250lm and a power consumption of 3-8watts, so with transformer losses these have efficiencies in the range of about 20-30lm/w. This is not a huge improvement and you're getting a major reduction in light output along with the reduced wattage.
The problem with lamps designed to run off a low voltage transformer is that these require another inbuilt power supply to provide the DC constant current needed to drive the LEDs. This additional power supply has losses which means that a 5w lamp may actually only be using 2-3w to produce light. They're also not likely to last anywhere near the 20-50,000 hours life that is often claimed.
The better alternative is to use downlights which are a system using a properly designed LED luminaire and dedicated power supply. These typically have wattages of 14 to 19w, and outputs of 500-800lm, although the ones with the best light quality are typically not as efficient as those with higher outputs, because the best coloured LEDs are not the most efficient ones. These downlights will cost between about $100 and $200, but if you buy from a well established manufacturer, they should be well made and can be expected to last the life of the installation (50,000hrs or more). The best of these are about 45lm/w total efficiency.
There is no company in the world producing a downlight the size of a low voltage halogen, that can produce 1000lm, even though there are several companies claiming their lights do! For example there is a downlight mentioned in this forum, who's manufacturer claims it produces nearly 1100lm, but when tested it actually produces a bit over half that figure. They also claim it has a payback in energy savings of about 1/4 of the real payback period. It's not a bad product compared with other LED downlights, but when a manufacturer lies about their product's performance to such an extent I don't think think people should use their $140 downlights.
If you're looking at LED products, ask suppliers to provide an “SSL Quality” label which is provided by the Lighting Council of Australia (or the equivalent overseas label). This is a certification that’s intended to allow customers to make a fair comparison between LED products, based on genuine independent test information.
More information:
Australian Scheme: http://www.lightingcouncil.com.au/ssl/overview.php
US Scheme: http://www.lightingfacts.com/Incidentally, although it's not really suitable for most residential lighting (it's about 190mm diameter), the world's best/most efficient LED downlight is manufactured by Cree in the US http://www.creeledlighting.com/products/Downlights/6inchdownlights/LR6-DR1000.aspx. Cree are conservative in their rating of 1000lm, and total power consumption of 12.5w (80lm/w). But independent testing actually found it produced over 1050lm and used 12.3w (about 85lm/w). It's also got the best colour rendition of any non incandescent light source, and is superbly well made. It does cost a fair bit bit more than any of the typical halogen replacements though.
It's worth remembering that in the average home, lighting accounts for only about 10-15% of total electricity consumption. It may be worth considering 20 or 35w Halogen ES lamps for bedrooms and other areas where lights are not used for long periods, because the payback period is too long to make good quality LED lights viable. In living areas and kitchens where lights are often run for quite a few hours per day, good quality LED downlights can be more worthwhile. Consider more efficient appliances like refrigerators, washers, microwaves and TVs, too, as these have the potential to save more electricity than replacing lights...
Posted Tuesday 7 Dec 2010 @ 7:32:29 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterThe Cree LR6 is a gorgeous downlight, but they are around $300 a piece here in Oz for the standard unit and $400 for the DR1000 version, totally unrealistic unfortunately. For anyone interested, see http://www.cutter.com.au/search.php?pg=1&stext=lr6
Posted Tuesday 7 Dec 2010 @ 9:14:25 am from IP # -
While trying not to get off topic it is incredible to see how such a straight forward piece of electronics can cost so much when my 42" plasma was bought for the same price, $400.
I think Led lighting is suffering from the battery pricing structure disease. They charge what they can get away with.
Posted Tuesday 7 Dec 2010 @ 9:43:56 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterEconomies of scale. The US version of the LR6 retails for around US$80...
Posted Tuesday 7 Dec 2010 @ 11:52:55 am from IP # -
Benny
MemberThats great information siliconsurfer - esp the SSL quality site. Thanks.
Now expect some specific questions from everyone though - i.e. what is a "good quality" LED direct halogen downlight replacement ? I try to find LED globes with 3-400 lumens output as a minimum but as you say - can we trust these specs ?I'm faced with this problem all the time. New houses/renovations with 20-30 50W halogen downlights, usually on a 1-2m grid in the ceiling. Not many people are prepared to throw all this away and go back to a standard pendant fitting with 1 efficient globe per room space. Even if they accept the lower light output from replacement LED globes, the cost is high at A$20 per LED from chinese sites and $40-60 from Aust sites.
Posted Wednesday 8 Dec 2010 @ 12:57:18 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterBenny, if people want to retain downlights I tell them to upgrade to ES27 can fittings and fit LED bulbs from mobs like Earthled etc, this is a cheap upgrade and works well.
A conversion I was involved with recently (we ran an article in ReNew) saw the removal of eight 50 watt halogens and fittings and installation of ES27 cans and Earthled Zetalux bulbs. Power went from 400+ watts down to less than 50 and lighting levels actually improved.
This home, like many, had narrow angle halogens putting spots of light on dark polished floors, which of course absorb most of the light. By using wide angle lamps in ES fittings, we ended up with direct illumination of the rooms rather than reflection from the floors, and so the apparent lighting improved considerably.
This is one of the simplest and cheapest conversions and also the most versatile as there is a vast array of LED, CFL etc lamps available with ES bases, so even if you are not happy with the LEDs you can find a bulb that you are happy with.
Posted Wednesday 8 Dec 2010 @ 2:06:41 am from IP # -
Benny
MemberGood suggestion Lance. That saves the issues with the transformers too. From a quick look I can see ES27 downlight fittings for only $10 - much less than the LED globe!
Given that LED globes tend to have a "downwards" light distribution, i.e. max of 180 deg rather than 360deg common in incandescents and CFL's, have you seen much of a decrease in the output light due to having the LED's recessed ? Or putting it another way, if the LED ES27 globe were extended below the can to be more like a standard pendant fitting, is the light output better ?Posted Wednesday 8 Dec 2010 @ 7:32:19 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterHi Benny, we found that so long as the bulb is reasonably close to the opening of the fitting then the light distribution is good, there seems to be no need to have it extending outside of the fitting. This is mainly because, in many cases, there are multiple fittings in each room as they are used to replace halogens.
Posted Wednesday 8 Dec 2010 @ 8:36:45 am from IP # -
Anonymous
UnregisteredInterestingly, up to now home lighting more or less ended up at CFLs. While a low priced ordinary CFL lamp would be awkwardly long and tubby, the development of the helical fluorescent tube made it possible for it to be used in ceiling and wall fixtures as architectural building elements.
In comparison the LED which many identified hitherto as street lighting and traffic signal lamps only, now finds itself in the fore front as an eco friendly home lighting product. The newness of the technology is hampering the mass production but seemingly is fast catching up the lost time.
Well, in the meantime we seem to be seeing the last few months of the reign of the great incandescent lamp, along with the use of the term “watts” to illustrate the level of brightness. (Soon it will be Lumens). The EU’s ban on 75w lamp from the 1st September, will ensure that no one will manufacture them in this region (or import) while you will see less and less of them on the store shelves as well, till the stocks last. Next it will be time of the lesser folks like 60w, 40w and 25w
techstore.ie
Posted Friday 17 Dec 2010 @ 5:35:32 pm from IP # -
Anonymous
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welsite:www.bump-led.com/index_en.aspPosted Saturday 15 Jan 2011 @ 9:08:23 am from IP # -
shutupboy1
MemberI to have stressed over making the right decision on LED downlights and in the end, after alot of research, I made the right choice.
First things first, dont try and compare lumens and lux of one type of DL to another type. When LED DLs first came out they had their light meters saying look this 3W and 5W LED is just as bright(or brighter!) than the halogen.... BS.
The fact is our eyes cant even see half the things they were saying. Side by side, I could always tell that the halogen was brighter, regardless of their light meters.
In the end, the only factor I found that I should have been worrying about, was CRI, thats the colouring rendering index. Basically, the closer this number is to 100, the better. 100 = how things look in natural light(which is perfect for me).
Now most LED DLs have been nowhere near 100.
Just to give you some idea, halogen DLs have a CRI of nearly 100, where the best LED DL CRI I had seen was around 50. Until now....
The Brightgreen range of LED DLs are the closest thing I have seen to halogens, infact, they are nearly the same for me. They have a CRI of over 90 and although expensive I have fitted them all through my new house as Im yet to find any other that even come close.
I know I probably sound like a sales rep but Im not. Im just so impressed with these that as far as Im concerned they are the end to any debate on the best LED DLs.
http://www.brightgreen.net.au check them out I promise if you can get past the price you wont regret it.P.S. I put in the whole fitting but they do a replacement bulb aswell
Posted Monday 18 Jul 2011 @ 12:27:40 am from IP # -
dymonite69
Members dont try and compare lumens and lux of one type of DL to another type. When LED DLs first came out they had their light meters saying look this 3W and 5W LED is just as bright(or brighter!) than the halogen.
Which goes to show that lumens and lux don't explain the whole story.
Lumens only describe the amount of light emitted from the source. It doesn't describe how brightly a surface is illuminated. This is dependent on the distance from the source and the beam angle. The quoted lux only describes the maximum centre of beam illumination and not how widely and brightly the pool of light is.
Therefore a highly focussed light e.g. LED torch/parabolic reflector has a high lux but virtually useless for general illumination but a spherical source will have a low lux but cast light in all directions. However, its effectiveness is lowered the further the subject is away from the source.
LEDS by nature are a point source. If one were to design a LED based lighting plan, it would seem silly to just use them as a stand in replacement for conventional lights. Rather than grouping multiple LEDS into a fixture, it would make more sense to spread them over a large area to make use of each of the LED's lighting efficiency. This can't be done with standard incandescent or fluorescent tubes.
Posted Monday 18 Jul 2011 @ 1:02:10 am from IP # -
Anonymous
UnregisteredWell, maybe most LED lights vendors are a little over-advertised. But let's just say the luminous efficacy of a LED downlight is 50lm/watt, then, a 15W LED downlight can deliver 750lm in total. Considering LED is a directional light source, LED downlight's 750lm is more effective than traditional downlight's 900lm, does it sound reasonable? So, if a 15W LED downlight can replace a 50W halogen downlight, why not? It's 70% energy saving.
Posted Wednesday 20 Jul 2011 @ 8:56:26 am from IP #
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