Solar PV - Solar Frontier or Sanyo HIT (decision time, advice needed)

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Solar PV - Solar Frontier or Sanyo HIT (decision time, advice needed)

(31 posts) (15 voices)

Started 1 year ago by henza
Latest reply from talbs

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http://www.pvoutput.org/list.jsp?fs=1&id=124&si
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henza
Member

Hi,

Im planning on installing a 5.8kw system on my East and West roof in Sydney.
There are 2 types im considering at the moment through Solarshop,

1. 70 x 82w Solar Frontier panels (thin film, 3rd generation)
2. 28 x 210w Sanyo HIT panels

I was told option one will be cheaper by a fair amount (waiting for new quote), due to the cheaper Solar Frontier panels. They will both produce similar outputs, average generation for #1 is 19.4kWh/day vs #2 is 20.2 kWh/day.

What concerns me is the weight of the panels, if i go with option 1, I will have over 860Kg of additional weigh on my roof, but if I go with option 2 with the Sanyo's its about 50% of that. Not to mention the extra complication of mounting 70 panels, cabling, connectors and frames!
Should I be concerned about this?

I really dont know if its worth paying extra to get the 28x Sanyo panels, i dont have shading issues so either panel type will be ok for me.
I was also quoted with 3 x SB inverters, i dont know why i need 3 of them, why not get one large inverter or maybe 2 inverters, one for each roof with multiple string support?

FYI its a 2 storey brick home with concrete tiles with sarking, being a project home im assuming its got standard pine trusses.

Opinions & experiences appreciated.
Cheers....

Posted Thursday 26 Aug 2010 @ 6:59:12 am from IP #
cool at home
Member

You need an inverter for each aspect your panels face. So if you install panels facing north, east and west (say) you need a separate inverter for each (although I believe there are some dual feed inverters). With 70 thin film tiles on your roof I'm guessing that quite a few will be facing less than optimally for power generation. It's much easier to get 28 panels facing north, n-e and n-w, and outside of this the performance of the panels will drop significantly.

Posted Thursday 26 Aug 2010 @ 8:03:00 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

henza, check out the thread on this site 'best direction for solar panels?' and you will see a post from matas about a 'fin' mount panels option, this is what I would be using if I were you. If you went that way, it would be with the Sanyo panels, as there would be less racking involved.

As cool at home has stated, anything beyond NW, N, NE, will see a big drop off in efficency. Good luck.

Posted Thursday 26 Aug 2010 @ 11:12:20 am from IP #
Tacker
Member

Good on you for going for such a large sysem

One thing that is often overlooked is the embodied energy of the panels (and the whole system for that matter, i.e inverter only lasts ~10 years, aluminium rails, transport etc) etc). Thin film generally have a lower embodied energy mono or poly crystalline panels,so might be the way to go.

If you are putting them on east or west facing roof, with the associated loss of efficiency (20-30% loss) then the 'energy payback' of the entire system becomes long. Something to consider!

Anyone got links or similar to embodied energy of PV panels? (Renew had an article a year or so ago)

Posted Thursday 26 Aug 2010 @ 11:00:15 pm from IP #
henza
Member

Unfortunately my north facing roof is an odd shape due to the 'bay window section' smack bang in the middle are my 2x solar hot water panels. There isnt much useable area left, not to mention some shading due to a gum tree.

My only option is East & West, house is basically aligned to North, so E&W will give me similar output. I asked about the fin type mount, consultant said you will need more roof area, because you need to space out the panels.

Some things which put me off on the FIN mount,
1. I get northely winds off the river and want to avoid my roof flying off in the windy August-October months [maybe i need to fit an aero-spoiler to prevent lift off]
2. Birds making nests under the frames, leaf buildup, etc.
3. Neighbours on my North complaining about the view & reflection = causing issues with Council.

Anyone here have the FIN mounts?
have you had any of my above mentioned issues?

By the way those outputs I quoted earlier were done by the Solarshop consultant. He had taken my orientation of E&W into account with a 22.5 degree pitch. Im not sure how accurate those figures are but I will insist on some type of output guarantee before signing up.

Tracker, apparently the Solar Frontier panels have a much lower embodied energy,
and due to their cheaper production cost, it does make them a more attractive option

Link ------> http://www.solar-frontier.com/brochure_EU_Asia.php

Another thing to consider while loading up your roof with panels is the insulation effect, im assuming a cooler roof therefore a slightly cooler house. But im still worried about the 860+Kg of extra weight.

Posted Thursday 26 Aug 2010 @ 11:49:37 pm from IP #
Benny
Member

I bought the kaneka thin film panels from solar shop and have been very happy with the performance. My main reason was the lower embodied energy as price was similar to crystalline.
Henza - don't concentrate so much on the total weight of 860kg. Whats important is the concentration of the weight, ie kg/sqm. The panels will be distributed over a huge area, esp the thin film and the localised pressure should be easily carried by the roof. If your trusses are already holding up concrete tiles I'd say the extra weight/sqm of the panels will be minimal. And the installers will check that anyway.

Posted Friday 27 Aug 2010 @ 12:33:56 am from IP #
jaydigger
Member

I have 1kw each of both panels facing due north and find they compliment each other well.
The sanyo produce approx 1 kw a day more in the cooler months and the kaneka approx 1kw a day more in the hotter months.
My wife finds the kaneka more visually attractive on our dark brown roof,however i am not too concerned with aesthetics and concentrate on maintenance issues like its easier to clean 5 sanyo panels compared to 18 kanekas and you do need to clean them every few months,so the less time i spend on the roof the better.
Heat affects production so my advice would be if you live in low altitude areas west of parramatta use kanekas ,if you live in higher altitude areas or east of parramatta use the sanyo.
Those are my observations after 2 years of pv ownership, hope it is helpful.

Posted Sunday 29 Aug 2010 @ 12:13:22 pm from IP #
alicat
Member

Just wondering if you went ahead with this system as I am considering the same system with an east west orientation? Have you found that it is generating what you expected it to?

Posted Saturday 5 Mar 2011 @ 10:04:08 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

Tacker
I found an academic paper on embodied energy of PV. Here is the title and Abstract.

If anyone wants the full article, and can't find it off the net, post your email address and I'll email it to you.

"Published Jun 16 2006 by Energy Bulletin, Archived Jun 16 2006

Energy Payback of Roof Mounted Photovoltaic Cells
by Colin Bankier and Steve Gale

Abstract
The energy payback time of photovoltaic (PV) cells has been a contentious issue for more than a decade. Some studies claim that the joule content of the energy and materials that were put into the process of making the PV cell, will be equaled by the joule content of the electrical output of the cell within a few years of operation. Other studies claim that the useful electrical energy output of the PV cell will never exceed the total amount of useful energy contained within all the inputs of the manufacturing, installation and lifetime operating processes of the PV cell. These studies are often loosely referred to as measuring the energy "payback" of the PV cell. This study undertook a literature review to determine the key assumptions and considerations included in PV Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) modelling. In addition, other forms of modeling such as embodied energy (EE) analysis have also been considered. This review has concluded that the likely energy payback of a typical domestic sized rooftop grid connected PV cell is approximately four years. In addition, it was estimated that larger utility PV cell power stations would have a much longer energy payback period."

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 1:22:52 am from IP #
swanning_it
Member

"it was estimated that larger utility PV cell power stations would have a much longer energy payback period."

Curious concept. How many people actually believe PV will ever make "Utility Power Station" grade? I was under the impression PV was always regarded as a great benefit for localised peak power offset. To achieve this, we already have the most energy consuming infrastructure already existing......roof tops. The other day, I was having a look at all the excellent roof top space available on top of an industrial estate. Except for a few evaporators, the rooftops were pretty much clear, well contructed, unshaded and just waiting for someone to come and install PV.

If you had to set up a PV farm from scratch, the embodied energy would be higher, simply because of the structures and footings needed to support it all.

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 2:25:33 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

That's a good point!!

Retrofitting might be cheaper than greenfields PV array.

Why has no-one done a C/B analysis of this?

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 3:09:33 am from IP #
henza
Member

Alicat, funny you ask i was going to update this post today.

Well I decided to go with the Solar Frontier panels through Solarshop, and here is my experience dealing with them. Dont expect to hear from the 'consultant' after you sign up, you are basically kept in the dark until you contact Solarshop directly. After the permission to connect was submitted (OCTOBER 2010)to the wrong Electricity company it had to be re-submitted wasting about 5 weeks. I got the permission to connect around Christmas 2010.
I was told there is a stock delay with the SB300TL inverters and they will 'get more stock by Christmas 2010'

That didnt bother me because i wasnt expecting the system to be installed before Jan 2011 anway. Jan 2011 comes and goes, made a phonecall to see what was going on, they said there is a shortage of the Solar Frontier panels. They sad they will call me back at the end of Feb to set a date for early March install. I was OK with that although a little annoyed.

No one called me as expected, i called back to get an update, they said there is a panel shortage and not to expect anything until MAY, because their installers were completely booked out and there is a waiting list for customers with those panels.
They didnt tell me where i was in the list, even though i said i signed up October last year. So all i have from Solarshop is "around May"

I think they were very sneaky in the way they happily sign people up for those SF panels even though they themselves know they have no means to supply the system.
Had I have known this would happen, I would have gone with Solarswitch.

I referred my parents to Solarshop in 2009 and the service was great, they got a 1.5kw Kaneka system, I dont have suck luck. If i cancel ill lose my 60c FIT, im sure they know that and they know im stuck with them now.

Currently playing the waiting game.....

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 6:33:59 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

henza
Dunno if it's different in VIC, but here in NSW the "permission to install a small scale generator" comes from the retailer or the infrastructure authority.

You can switch installers if you like once you have the "permission".

If you don't have a copy of the document, ask the retailer for a copy.

In NSW it is sent to the householder.

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 11:23:51 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

I signed up in December '09 with Todae Solar, and got an early March '10 install, and I thought that was a long time to wait! Seven months seems ridiculous to me, I would have gone elsewhere by now...

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 11:09:43 pm from IP #
swanning_it
Member

I'm curious about these panels. They are certainly a nice looking panel with matching powder coated frames which will win with aesthetics appeal, but the claim of 12.2% real world efficiency seems a tad high but if true, it would make them the stand out performer for thin film (CIGS, a-Si, CdTe etc).

The trouble I see with both henza and alicats installations is that neither will give comparable figures because of their orientation and I'm guessing the "consultant" is banking on that as well. Having read their product brochure, I can see marginal benefit with the inverse temperature coefficient of these panels compared with monos, but not a huge difference. There is no mention of the other benefits of say a-Si with shade tolerance, haze and smoke tolerance, poor orientation forgiveness etc.

Henza, you suggested in an earlier post that you would require an output guarantee from the consultant.....did you get it?

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 11:28:24 pm from IP #
Taman
Member

Henza I laughed when I read your latest post. I am getting exactly the same treatment from Solarshop in Adelaide. When I talk to them all I get is soothing noise and promises to pass this on to the manager. My concern is whether Solarshop is still going to be trading long enough to support any warranty issues with so many unhappy customers.

Posted Thursday 10 Mar 2011 @ 12:53:27 pm from IP #
talbs
Member

My 4 kw solar frontier called plasma black

Latest power statement was Zero too pay $337 credit

Thanks Solar shop

http://www.pvoutput.org/list.jsp?fs=1&id=124&sid=112&ex=1&g=0&ps=30

Posted Sunday 13 Mar 2011 @ 10:23:35 am from IP #
henza
Member

Not sure if im supposed to start a new topic, ill wait for the moderators to say something

swanning_it: just to clarify, I was not given an output guarentee on paper, instead estimates over a 12 month period with peak and average generation. This graph was customised to my system and orientation, using some CEC web site for solar data. The sales consultant said that they go on those figures, if the system is underperforming then they will look into it as part of their installation warranty.

Ok i got the panels installed 2 weeks ago, Gross meter installed yesterday. Today is the first full day [29APR2011] as at 4:30PM I have fed 11kWh into the grid.
Its still feeding power in at 114w now, thick cloud and rain\drizzle all day.
I cant wait for a clear sunny day, so I can get some decent figures happening!!
This is below the average generation SS estimated for APRIL, but in all fairness it has been miserable all bloody day.

As I have highlighted before, customer service is non-existant at Solarshop (post-sales). After you sign the contract you are a mushroom (kept in the dark and fed sh*t).
On one occasion when my phone calls and messages were ignored, i went into the Castle Hill store to get some answers.

The install team were great, although the CEC electrician was not on site the whole time, but he did all the wiring up to the roof isolators. From the isolators to the panels were done by the panel\frame guys. Due to stock shortages i got upgraded from the 3000TL-20's to 4000TL-20's, the bigger inverters have multi tracking and active cooling too which is a good thing. another bonus is they wont be worked as hard. Also the efficiency curve is the same as the 3000TL so im happy.

Now I really dont know what happens with my GFIT, i have the Integral meter, its working, but will it make it for the 60c tariff? (I signed last year before the cutoff)
I wont be able to relax until i know for sure.

For those of you contemplating on a Solarshop system, just make sure you have patience!
The product is good, but the desk jockeys in head office need to go to a customer service boot camp.

Posted Friday 29 Apr 2011 @ 6:57:31 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

A nervous time for you, are you sure you will get the 60c?

What we are hearing from the NSW government at the moment doesn't fill me with much confidence about the future of solar in NSW.

Posted Friday 29 Apr 2011 @ 8:12:32 am from IP #
Ueee
Member

I Am also getting solarshop to do my system, 3kw of solarfrontiers. They where the only people who took into consideration the shading i get in winter and not just brushing over it when i bought it up. The service here in Canberra has been fine, its taken about 4 weeks from deposit to getting an install date, which is in june, this included roof plans, ACTEWAGL approval etc. The panels are going on my shed, and i was told after paying the deposit that solarshop didn't provide wiring from the inverter to the meterbox when they are not on the same building, but after only one email querying this, and pointing out i had a spare conduit ready for the cables the rep said they would include it-not bad considering its about a 25 meter run. My father used solarshop last year and had the same service- the only problems he had were with county energy. Maybe it depends on which branch you go through? I must say i feel lucky to be in the ACT...we only pay 14.18c per kwh and i'll get 45.7c for every kwh i produce....just a shame you have to live in a city full of politicians to get it!!

Posted Friday 29 Apr 2011 @ 10:14:10 am from IP #
Ueee
Member

oh, i also received a letter just after the Japanese earthquake telling me that neither of the Solarfrontier or Kaneka plants had been afected and that there would be no delays because of it.

Posted Friday 29 Apr 2011 @ 10:18:00 am from IP #
solarexpert
Member

Solar Frontier will supply GE with its proprietary CIS (copper, indium, and selenium) thin-film solar modules as part of GE’s globally marketed portfolio of solar energy solutions.

The company will provide GE branded panels to help meet the growing global demand for reliable clean-energy solutions. In return, GE will be providing its power plant expertise to enhance the development of Solar Frontier’s CIS technology for use in utility-scale solar installations.

Posted Friday 29 Apr 2011 @ 10:29:18 am from IP #
swanning_it
Member

henza, copy and paste from the NSW announcement yesterday, which hopefully answers your question.

"Under the transitional measures, customers who purchased or leased systems (or entered into a legally binding agreement to do so) by 27 October 2010 can still be eligible to receive the previous 60 cent gross tariff if their application for connection is received by the distributor by 18 November 2010. For all eligible systems purchased or leased after 27 October 2010, a new gross tariff rate of 20 cents per kilowatt hour now applies.

The date of 18 November 2010 is fixed by legislation and cannot be extended. Any application which is not received by 18 November 2010 cannot be considered for the 60 cent tariff rate. Evidence of the purchase agreement for the system, including date of purchase, may be required from customers and installers in order for customers to receive the 60 cent tariff rate."
http://www.industry.nsw.gov.au/energy/sustainable/renewable/solar/solar-scheme

Posted Friday 29 Apr 2011 @ 8:53:05 pm from IP #
talbs
Member

My latest solar power statement is Zero too pay with $607 credit
4kw Solar frontier system

Thanks Solar shop

http://www.pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=124&sid=112

Posted Thursday 5 May 2011 @ 11:14:42 pm from IP #
eggman
Member

I've read with interest your comments re Solarshop. I have also been getting the run around from them. Since the outset their sales person has been technically unable to answer many basic questions that I thought they would have been easily able to answer. Which has left me to do all of the research and to QA their recommendations. They even tried to sell me a solution that won't physically fit on my roof. Despite my insistence that it wouldn't fit. They actually asked me if I would mind if it hung over the edge of the roof. Whilst wasting time sorting all of the issues out with them they are now telling me that I can't have the inverter that I want. The long and short of the time wasting by Solarshop has been that with the impending demise of the 5 x REC multiplier coming up we've run out of time. I can't go with anyone else and I'm stuck with a solution that I didn't actually want.
The pre sales process with Solarshop has been difficult. So here's hoping that the installation is a bit smoother. However I'm not too confident. Given more time I wouldn't have gone with Solarshop. Here's hoping that the passage of time will see a lot of rationalisation in the Solar PV industry and will weed out some of these dodgy operators.

Posted Thursday 26 May 2011 @ 6:18:32 am from IP #
Ueee
Member

An update of my solarshop experience

My install is due for next Monday and i got a call a little earlier today from the rep saying that they didn't have enough 85w panels to do my job (36 panels) he then tells me that they won't have any more 85w panels till mid july. After trying not to let the sinking feeleing completely take over for a few seconds, he informs me that they can do the install in 82.5w panels and will give me an extra 6 to make up the difference. This takes the system from 3.06kw to 3.47kw (inverter is ok at 3800w). This just seems a bit too good to be true, Why not just give me an extra 2? luckily the panels are going on my shed roof, and at 114m2 there is plenty of space. I guess we'll see what happens on Monday. I'll no doubt post either good or bad news then.

Posted Tuesday 31 May 2011 @ 5:52:50 am from IP #
Ueee
Member

Well the panels are up, 42x82.5w as promised, and correct inverter. Install team were ok, but they were quote "sent out with the wrong length vertical rails" so they had to call solarshop and get them to send someone out with the correct length ones, then not 10 minutes they found that they had not been given joiners for the rails, so another call to the shop and someone else drove out with them. Otherwise i am happy, they had to set them out on the roof differently than planned because of the 6 extra panels, but it just means the extra panels will be in a bit more winter shade than i would have liked. Like most electricians they made a fair mess, but cleaned up very well. I would have to disagree with most of you and say that i would recommend Solarshop (CANBERRA) to anyone. I must say one of the things that really swayed me in there favour originally was that they offered $40 per rec, and they delivered on that on worries. I now just have to wait to june 30 for ACTEW to put the meter in and then i can turn it on.

I hope the other posters signed up to Solarshop get there systems in and working with the least amount of hassle.

Posted Monday 6 Jun 2011 @ 9:01:57 am from IP #
henza
Member

Hello,

I figured there is no point in duplicating a post, so I put up a detailed post on my Solar Shop system with pics here:

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1717372

Im pretty happy with the install and system so far. As strange as this sounds, im actually looking forward to my fist Origin bill.

Cheers,
Henry

Posted Tuesday 14 Jun 2011 @ 3:56:03 am from IP #
Ueee
Member

Talbs, can i ask where you are located? the map on PVoutput puts you in the middle of the Gulf of Guinea (off south Africa) NICE!

Posted Saturday 18 Jun 2011 @ 1:54:35 am from IP #
talbs
Member

south australia

Posted Thursday 23 Jun 2011 @ 10:24:15 am from IP #

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