d1emme
Member
Hi All,
I am new to ATA and I am hoping for some help.
Does anyone have the Solar Lord evacuated tube HW system? Do you recommended it or not? Any problems? How important is the stainless steel water tank? I have been given a quote through the Darebin Council scheme in Melbourne which seems very reasonable and would like further information before going ahead with it.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
olfella
Member
d1emme,
There are two types of systems under the generic heading of "Evacuated Tube" systems.
One type uses static copper heating bars with a small amount of liquid/gas sealed inside them to enhance the transfer of heat from lower to higher. In this type of system, the bars plug into the top manifold inside which the transfered energy heats the water in the manifold. The system has a contro;;er with several sensors which detect the lower tank or cold inlet, top tank & manifold temperatures. Typically, when the manifold temperature is sensed to be more than 12degC higher than the tank temperature, the small circulation pump starts & circulates water from the bottom of the tank to the manifold, pushing the heated water into the tank. Once the manifold temperature is detected to have fallen to within 6degC of the top tank sensor, the pump shuts off. And so it goes. If you want to learn more about these systems, you will find threads & many posts in the forum which refer to Hills, Apricus & AAE ET systems. These are the type of system most people in here using ET would have. Personally, I have an AAE, but there is little difference between the three named. It is a case of best deal, instal delay & timing for most.
The other type of ET system is one which looks very much the same, is also referred to as a U tube system. U-Tube systems work on a similar principle, but the copper pipes in the tybes are actual pipes & have active water flowing through them. This also means the integrity of every joint is critical over the life of the system. I've just had a look at Solar Lord site & confirmed it is actually a U-Tube system. I don't know anything about the brand as this is the first time I've come across it, so I can't make any comment on it's quality. Among the threads on ET systems mentioned above, you'll also find some comments about U-tube systems.
Everyone has to make their own decision in the end, but I reckon you'll find all the info you need if you go through the various ET threads on those other systems in the archive.
Hope that helps.
Tacker
Member
I too got a quote for a Solar Lord through the Darebin Scheme. I ended up getting an AAE system (30 tube with a fully prgramable gas storage tank) through another company who provided much better customer service and product knowledge at a similar price.
Very happy with the installation. (not sure if I can provide company details on this forum?)
oldfossil
Member
d1emme, We have a Solar Lord system and are quite happy with it. It is the U tube system as distinct from the Heat tube system and I've read that the U tube system is about 10% more efficient than the Heat tube, but whether that's true or not, who knows. 15 tubes with a 270 litre tank (not stainless). It's also off-peak electric with a booster switch in the meter box. Ours is set flat on our roof which is 15 degrees and facing due north. The tank boiled several times last summer which indicates, I think, that a 25 degree pitch or more would probably be more beneficial and might stop it from boiling in summer and would certainly be better for winter heating. We're in Melbourne and had the off-peak off from end of October to May this year.
gully
Member
I've got an AAE gas storage like Tacker. Love the controller, you can do heaps of customisation. Oldfossil: Yep that pitch is pretty shallow, for the cost you should look at a frame to increase the angle.
The point olfella makes about the tubes being full of water being a weakness is well stated in my opinion. One little crack in a tube and your hot water system is compromised.
Gandini
Member
Surely if the tubes in the Solar Lord U-tube ET system are well made and jointed properly they should have no more chance of leaking than copper pipes in any type of ET and FP SHW systems and in plumbing generally?
Have the Solar Lord systems been around long enough to assess their durability on the basis of actual performance rather than well-meant hypothesizing?
d1emme
Member
Thank you all for all your fantastic information. I am a lot more educated but only slightly closer to making a choice.
I am not sure if this is allowed on the forum. If anyone has a company that you have used and willing to recommend could you please post their contact details or email me at zuludave70@gmail.com. I would really appreciate it. I live in Northcote in Melbourne.
Thanks!!!
Hi d1emme,
I had a Solar Lord evacuted tube SHW system installed in April 2009, and other than a faulty temperature sensor (which was replaced very quickly) I haven't had any issues with it. Mine's the 'Heat Pipe' version (Model No: G270SH24-O) not the U-pipe version.
It consists of:
* 24 evacuated tubes (with a “Novel Sputtering” coating developed and patented at Sydney University)
* 270 litre tank (not stainless steel)
* Eternity (Model G26) gas booster
This was installed by Hot Water Professionals in Melbourne, and I was very happy with their service and workmanship.
Regards,
Karl
Ade
Member
Hi there -
I'm tossing up between a Solar Lord U-tube system and an AAE system. Both will need to be S/S 315L tank and electricity and located in Canberra. What I can't fathom is that the AAE system on offer is 30 tube; the Solar Lord is 15 tubes. I can't see how the 15 tube can deliver sufficient heating, compared to the 30 tube.
Also, does anyone have any experience with Endless Solar? They claim they make their own EV systems - but the design looks just like the AAE system.
I'd appreciate your opinions and also if anyone has experience with the 15 tube Solar Lord.
Thanks heaps - great forum and very helpful advice and views.
Ade
The smaller size of U-tube systems is born out of necessity. As the U-tube systems must be pre-assembled, it would be too difficult having elements larger than 15 tubes. And using two 15 tube elements would come too expensive.
My recommendation is not to worry too much about which system is best. Most are good. And solar is not meant to replace all but most of conventional energy. The more you approach 100% replacement of fossil energy the more expensive the system gets. But 100% replacement would not be the economical optimum.
Ade
Member
Hi there - thanks sun2steam; most appreciative of your comment. I agree with your reasoning about not trying to replace 100% as it simply is not economical. Problem is finding the "sweet point". My concern with the Solar lord vs AAE vs Endless Solar is not wanting to run out of H/W and have rebellion amongst the troops. If the electric booster is cutting in more frequently with one system than another then the economic point is reduced for the lower efficiency system; but all that means is it takes longer to pay for itself.
Another question - is there any advantage to having a mid mount element in the water storage tan over bottom mount?
Thanks again for your time folks; great forum.
The advantage of a mid mount element is that you can leave your booster on no matter what. In worst case it just heats up the upper part of the tank which is more economical.
The downside is that you may run out of hot water occasionally if you family likes long showers.
One way to cope with it is to have long showers only after sunny days.
Ade
Member
Hi there - Thanks again sun2steam. I really appreciate your advice / observations. I must confess to quietly going mad with this. The problem I ind talking to the sales people is that they are all terribly enthusiastic about solar and the evils of electricity and so on - but are generally not able to explain issues or give straight answers. The "spiv' alarm sounds, which may not be fair, but its just that protective, cautionary side of me. Also, spending 5K+ (when solar power in included) means I must be careful.
Two final questions.
With the mid-mount element on an electric boosted system, will the water generally be at or about 60C - which is required, so I am told, by the health regs? As soon as the thermostat detects the temp falling I guess the booster cuts into bring the temperature of the water up. [Presuming the thermostat has been set at 60C or above.]
Second. We have a flat roof, which means I will need a pitching frame. I have received a quote for this from $80 through to $600. They look to me as if they are merely a couple of triangles with cross braces and made of S/S (because they will be in contact with the galvo-iron cliplock roof) L or U section. Maybe I am wrong. Most obliged for advice. If that is all they are then I could make them myself or buy the cheaper ones....
Thanks folks for your advice.
Sunshine
Member
I think 15 tubes won't be enough, unless you live in far northern Australia. You'd be better off getting a 30 tube heat tube system, eventhough it may be 10% less efficient, will supply you with more hot water, and require less boosting. There's no point getting solar hot water if the system isn't sized correctly, and requires daily boosting.
Secondly, I don't like the U tube idea as water flows through each of the tubes, increasing the chance of water leaks. The heat tube idea, with water flowing just through the manifold only sounds a simpler system.
The tilt kit for $80 sounds great, $600 a bit rich. It really depends on the final quote.
I agree with what Sunshine said. Efficiency does not really matter unless you have a very limited roof space. What you need is a sufficient amount of hot water at the lowest cost.
To your questions:
1) Yes, the electric booster will kick in whenever it senses less than about 60C AND when power is on. You should be on Offpeak1 which is cheap and only on during nighttime.
I would not worry about other tariffs and timer clocks. The installation is at least $150 to $200. And as Offpeak1 is by far the cheaper tariff, other tariffs with clever timer settings will never pay the extra investment back. They may save a little CO2 output though.
2) Yes, pitching frames are just a few SS bars and cross braces and screws. Cost varies a lot depending on suppliers. However if you would want to do it yourself you will probably spent a lot of time cutting and drilling SS steel.
Ade
Member
Sunshine, sun2steam - many thanks for your comments. They help a lot and are spot on.
The problem is not summer in Canberra; it is late Autumn, Winter and Spring. Even if U tubes are 10% more efficient than HP - that is a 15 U tube array is approx equivalent to a 17 tube HP (assuming average transfer of heat per pipe / tube). So, it would appear the 30 tube HP would produce far more hot water in less optimal conditions requiring less booster - even on winter days than a U tube array. Despite asking and looking, I am unable to find a comparison chart - along the lines of X number of U tubes are equivalent to X number of HPs.
I'm going to review all the quotes this week and when I've worked out what I'm doing I'll post a message.
thanks again for all your help; real sanity checks.
Regards
Ade
pablomc
Member
My parents have a Solarlord system with a 270 lt tank. They are very happy with it and boost only comes on briefly in winter...amazing as the system is on their verandah roof at 5 degrees facing north east. AAE and Apricus told me their heat pipes must be at minimum 20 degrees to work!
As the Solarlord system heats water directly (rather than a heat exchanger as a heat pipe does)it makes sense the performance claims are true. 15 Solarlord tubes get same recs as 22 heat pipe tubes.....they are also the only one that has won the Greensmart award...
peter69_56
Member
pablomc said:
My parents have a Solarlord system with a 270 lt tank. They are very happy with it and boost only comes on briefly in winter...amazing as the system is on their verandah roof at 5 degrees facing north east. AAE and Apricus told me their heat pipes must be at minimum 20 degrees to work!
Where do you live. I have the same system under the banner Solarplus, 18 tubes (with parabolic mirror behind them) on 315 litre tank and find I am boosting quite a bit in winter. I think I should have 24 tubes which would be the same as 30 standard ones for melbourne.
Pablomc aae & APRICUS both use different technologies to solar lord because the heat pipe works by creating steam it needs the 20 deg to rise to the manifold effectively.If you break a solarlord tube can it be easily replaced.does solar lord have a 15 year warranty. If you put a pitch bracket under your parents system they probly would not boost as often
in winter as it would gather more sunheat if facing the sun, lattitude angle will work but +15 would be great.In Queensland all plumbers that install solar must be solar liscensed and are responsable for the correct install orientation and pitch,if they do a dodgy they are called back to rectify or risk loosing their liscence.All plumbing inspectors are trained and look at the install including insulation type to make sure it is ok.This would take out the cowboys installing in NSW and VIC.You dont go to a salesman for a quote on solar or a pv company you must get a plumber.There is no such thing as DIY plumbing in Australia.
peter69_56
Member
Most if not all evacuated tubes can easily be replaced if broken. If the internal pipework of the U tube is broken it means a serious repair. If you breat the standard Evacuated internal tube you simply replace it.
Wish Vic was controlled like Qld as they can do crap jobs down here and seem to get away with it. I can plumb better than some I have seen.
Letter to local member plumbing industry council master plumbers type an email and cc may get some action that protects the consumer down theresounds like yo need it dodgy plumbers dont bother to do the course and without it on their licecse no rebates
peter69_56
Member
The dodgy plumbers are so bad I had to go around after them and fix their work, stop drips, insulate where they didnt and just clean up.
As I said previously I am not a plumber and believe you should regulate certain work to ensure it complies, however the work is generally so bad a layperson could do as good and often better. its not that the plumbers dont have the understanding or knowledge, its all about attitude and doing work professionally. Something some trade people clearly lack. The good ones are in demand (once you know who they are), however it seems more prevelant in the trades industries now, in for the money and out and never mind actually providing good work. I think often its called greed!
RogerRamjet
Member
My first post on ATA forums, but I've been lurking for a long time, learning lots... so thank you all.
I'm also hoping to install ET SHW with off peak boosting on a rural property with Tank water alone, but mains electricity. I had a few questions:
1. Is there a maximum distance between the manifold and tank, after which the temperature drop makes it too inefficient? I ask this because at this stage I'm not sure if I can place the collectors on our roof (due to possible winter shading - I need to check). The alternative is mounting the collectors on the ground maybe 30 metres from the tank. Would that also affect the pumping between the manifold and the tank?
2. Does using Rainwater tanks (pump, not gravity) require any special modifications, particularly regarding the SHW pump used?
I'm a novice with anything to do with pumps/water pressure/plumbing, and I'm paying a professional to do it all, but want to understand the issues. Thanks in advance.
RR
peter69_56
Member
Well I am not a professional either but my comments from experience are;
Extra insulation for the pipes you want the best. Ans solar rated so they dont fall apart in the sun. maybe industrial and coated. You will have to have a controller you can configure so you can make it pump the water to the tank before it cools in the lines. there are a number on the market, you dont want what I have which is a black box. it sucks, no info and no control on what happens. The SHW pump is independant of the system pressure. it just circulates the water, given the length you will need a three speed pump so you can set decent flow. I have a single speed and its far too low a flow. Not sure of the flow depending on number of tubes etc but say 2-2.5 litres/min would seem resonable. I would also suggest you set the circ pump shutoff lower diff so the water travels to the tank before shutting down. That might be a suck and see.
You have rain water and boost pump for water, should be ok as you system will have constant pressure. You also need an air vent at the outlet of your tubes to vent steam/air.
Where do you live and how many tubes will you have. What size tank are you considering? If rain water it should be soft I think so stainless would be best tank.
roger minimum 350 kpa then solar pump will do its job and only circulate the water.
s/s tank would be ok but an avv is not needed if you use an Apricus system keep the pipe run as short as you can have you thought of a pole mount collector maybe you can shorten the run .
RogerRamjet
Member
Thanks Peter and Amun-ra for the info. I'm planning on getting a 315L SS tank with 30 tube collector. The plan is to pitch it at 55 degrees to maximise winter heating and reduce the risk of summer overheating. (I'm in Kangaroo Valley, so rarely goes below zero on winter nights.) There are two of us in the house, but will have plenty of visitors too, so I wanted to cater for that.
peter69_56
Member
If you are haveing visitors constantly or teenagers you may want to cater for it. if they are only occassionaly i would just cater for you both. I had my brother over the last few days, emptied my 315 litre tank. Maybe he only washes here and no where else???
RogerRamjet
Member
blockquoteIf you are haveing visitors constantly or teenagers you may want to cater for it. if they are only occassionaly i would just cater for you both. I had my brother over the last few days, emptied my 315 litre tank. Maybe he only washes here and no where else??? blockquote
Funny - when I was a teenager the last thing I wanted was a long shower, just a long sleep. Anyway, I think we will be having a lot of extra folk staying, so I think we need a bit of extra capacity.
Peter, you had quite a few problems with your installation by the sounds of things. Are you happy now with the set-up? What would you do differently, and what are the crucial questions to ask the supplier and installer?
Cheers
RR
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