Andy Chee
Member
Jeffbloggs said: So in other words: Law of disorder - all things will become random grey goop. Biology does the exact opposite, life organizes molecules and energy, hence the name "organism". It does this spontaneously unlike a man made device that obeys the man made laws of "thermo(heated) & dynamic" disputes."
Earth is *not* a closed system, therefore entropy can decrease (ie. biology can evolve). This does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
But yes this might be a little off topic!
Diver
Member
sun2steam,
Re your post: "The main point of cooking is not to destroy the microorganisms".
Destroying or inactivating organisms is a vital reason for cooking food, both commercially and domestically. Commercial canneries, milk processing plants etc all have precise temperature and heating times for varying products for this reason. Canned foods are also vacuum sealed by the injection of a shot of steam into the can's air gap immediately after the filler and prior to the seamer that seals the lid. After the autoclave sterilisation process is complete, the cans are cooled and the steam gap becomes a vacuum. The vacuum is vital to the food's preservation.
I visited a factory at Preston, Victoria many years ago and saw large autoclaves filled with packaged vacuum sealed meat that was cooked in water for about 12 hours from memory. The term "vacuum cooking" completely threw me when I read it on this thread but I now assume that the above process is the one that Jeffbloggs uses, or is it?
You are involved in a commendable project and I have read this thread with much interest. Research and development often becomes tangential to the original focus and you have stated interest in harnessing a vacuum to facilitate other worthwhile purposes and the collection of distilled water. My information is that Kenya suffers water contamination from urban and industrial waste pollution and from the increased use of pesticides and fertilizers. In response, I posted regarding a vacuum tower for your tangential interest and in response to you seeking ideas. As you say, "creating vacuum requires energy". Correct; the energy in this instance is gravity, an inexhaustable supply the last time I checked.
JB posted; "Essentially you could produce a vacuum by simply taking advantage of climate air pressure changes and the right sized "leveraged" plungers". Correct! There is a lot of well documented research happening now that concentrates on the use of two hydrostatically sealed linked towers, one containing salty water and the other fresh water. By creating a vacuum as I have previously described and with the addition of a small increase in the salt water temperature to effect an additional pressure difference in each column, researchers are hoping to develop a method of low energy desalination and proof of concept has long been established.
Have you seen the results Henk Holtslag has had with his rope pump? Inspirational!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSxbIMxW2oE
Good luck with the project; do you have any photos to post?
Diver thanks for the feedback.
Of course cooking is meant to destroy microorganisms. But with the exception to the cooking of meat there is no need to kill bacteria. When I cook rice, potatoes, pasta, carrots, all kinds of vegetables the main purpose is to make it easier to chew and easier to digest. we can also eat most vegetables raw without being bothered about bacteria.
Don't confuse cooking and preservation. These are two different things.
And about: "The vacuum is vital to the food's preservation." The only function of the vacuum is that it keeps the lid nicely sealed and makes a nice pop when the container is opened, indicating that the container had been sealed properly and no bugs have been growing. But the vacuum does not do anything directly in regard to food preservation like killing the bugs. They are already dead after being cooked.
Vacuum cooking is not about using vacuum to cook but about using a vacuum pump to remove the oxygen from within the container.
Gravity is not an energy, it is a force. Only if you move mass in a gravity field you create or consume energy (or better convert) energy.
Jeffbloggs
Member
S2S
I agree, it is fun throwing some curve balls now and then. Also, I like science, but I dislike when it drifts off from my plane of reality... 
Stay here “my” science!
I just want to point out a few things I did/didn’t say:
1) It depends on the level of temperature and vacuum. I said: “Plus a vacuum can also be used to marinate and tenderize meat, and it still has a cooking effect in changing the food structure to make it more palatable and easier to digest (fibre/starch breakdown if used together with low temp heat)” I did include heat in the brackets! I am not saying no heat, nor that a total vacuum will cook food. I am saying that a combination of lower temperature, moderate vacuum will cook better than just standard 1bar 100-250C cooking.
Making it tender doesn’t make it safe to eat though, and edible raw food is generally healthy, apart from potatoes etc. In the case of a “third world” cooker though, I would assume health safety, ie microorganism destruction, is more important than having a tender meal. But as I proposed by using a combination, you could have both. Also food handling esp. without clean hands is the main transmission path for disease in food, bacterial destruction then becomes paramount. Alternatively I have seen ultrasonic molecular disassociation used for food that also kills bacteria etc. We also use ultrasonics pre-treatment for our biogas process to increase the “food” surface area, which helps promote bacteria numbers for methane production. The high pressure/temperature micro cavities actually have the power to rip open cell walls and fray fibrous materials without hydrolization. BTW this process is also commonly used for milk homogenisation and pasteurisation.
2)Agreed. Most pathogens are aerobic (air breathing) and therefore restricting the available oxygen via a vacuum creates an inhospitable environment. That is why vacuums are used in food preserving techniques like canning and bottling, like Diver explained.
Structurally a plastic bag will not retain its shape when a vacuum is formed inside the bag, however we want to store/process/cook food in these “bags”, therefore the bag will simply take the form of it’s contents, as is done in vacuum infusion. Structurally vacuum bags can easily sustain 500mbar if they only form a layer on the contents. In regards to heating such vacuum bag, the interior will only return to ambient pressure to the extent of gases (generally non-oxygen) released by the food, this will vary from food to food, and could be negligible or considerable in volume. Regardless of this, the bag will retain the food longer for lack of oxidisation/spoilage.
3) Ummm some people call machines that use atmospheric pressure changes “wind turbines”. Windmills are commonly used to drive piston pumps also. Other indirectly driven ones are wave generators, these are sometimes using atmospheric/ambient pressure twice: once from wind caused waves, secondly from air fluctuations caused by the rising and falling of the waves to drive an air turbine. If you want a vacuum, instead of electricity, then a leveraged plunger device would work as well. Sorry I ambushed you on that one. 
4) Agreed, apart from this addition on the end of your sentence: “Nobody has ever proven reliably that anything in physics is working outside these postulates” (that you know about!). So do you agree that the universe is in perpetual motion (PM exists), but man-made devices suffer under the man made laws of thermodynamics and can never achieve perpetual motion (ie life)? I know this might be becoming a circular argument, and we have had this discussion before about keeping an “open mind” to new information, and that we do not by far “know much at all” in the grand scheme of things. I am really only trying to tickle your ganglion for your perspective on the matter. BTW I am a firm believer in the perpetual design of nature and that we as humans need to tap into this perpetual nature to become sustainable, as well as live more comfortable.
5) So does this mean you agree that our "known" universe is only what we can explain through our perception? I also agree that our language is the barrier to more universal understanding; our definitions are to lax and constantly misused, or used out of context (mostly by me!). It seems that knowledge and understanding only exists "between the lines" of the written and spoken word. Sometimes I wish there was a way to restructure the recipients brain telepathically, so they can instantly understand what I mean without fail.
BTW I have another slogan for you: “we can’t afford to have free(monetary) energy” in a capitalist system!
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Also in regards to divulging some more alternative theories, and I know you don’t like PM’s and such theories etc but these are really worth checking out. Scalar wave field theory is the subject; have you heard of landsmann Prof. Dr.-Ing. Konstantin Meyl? His site:
http://www.meyl.eu/go/index.php?dir=10_Home&page=1&sublevel=0
This video is a good primer, however sadly only in German, I will try to find some in English versions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzsqeFH9Z_o
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On the point of "Gravity is not an energy, it is a force". A science professor once said: "Einstein's genius was being able to move away from the Newtonian view that gravity is a force - it is not. Mass tells spacetime how to curve. Spacetime tells mass how to move. Gravity is an effect you observe in the dimensions we can sense." IE our perception of the universe is not necessarily the way it works, as per my previous metaphysical toast... Hope Einstein was right for the nukes sake!
Also another argument could be made with gravity as a force being a “potential energy”, therefore "literally" speaking it is an energy... It's a shame that even science has problems defining itself. :0
Should we now put Einstein and Newton on the too much grog crew too?
Are my interpretations really that horrible to scientists? (or do I have horrible science?)
I'm so sorry about that!
BTW Diver thx for backing me up on my posts!
I agree that "our perception of the universe is not necessarily the way it works" but unless there is proof that our models are wrong, they can be used to describe what's going on.
I had a good time watching the youtube video. I was hilarious, and nonsense.
Jeffbloggs
Member
S2S
When did you lose your curiosity? It's a shame you don't have enough doubt in your belief of the popular accepted science, to give scalar waves a go. But thats ok.
Back to "cooking" something real
How long have you been doing work for Vanuatu and Kenya? I would be interested in assisting if I can. Also, I can source relatively cheap PV for about $2.5/watt from China and Sunboy inverters from Germany. Do you source your ET units from China also? I am looking at offering a tender for RE tech for a suburb development for 300 blocks/houses at a mine site in WA. Affordable and reliable Solar HWS is something I have not yet sourced, do you have bulk buying power with you ET's? Would be good to network some of our efforts.
BTW did you want to formulate a strategy to investigate the cooking solutions? ie miniature feasibility study? Would be happy to assist further if you want.
On the point of food water/production have you ever considered implementing hydroponic greenhouses like:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/moon-vegetable-greenhouse-101019.html and;
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/news/no-soil-no-problem-1.1609370 or;
http://www.omegagarden.com/ possibly with the addition of some natural lighting via fiber-optics etc?
Also biogas systems tend to have many symbiotic advantages ie CO2 and nutrient enrichment with heat for greenhouses. Greenhouses produce food and waste organic matter for biogas production etc. We currently have both on our site, and are developing the systems to integrate the two.
Likewise, I would like to think that our common purpose can achieve a worthwhile outcome on these projects.
Diver
Member
S2S:
I think I should briefly mention my background at this point. Most of my working life has been in the food industry with several companies, over 20 years of which was with one major international company with most of that time specialising in the sterilisation processes of canned food. I also served several years with National Foods working predominately in pasteurisation. These days I am self employed and concentrate on new product development.
In addition to replying to you posting: "The main point of cooking is not to destroy the microorganisms", I cannot ignore the posting of:
"The only function of the vacuum is that it keeps the lid nicely sealed and makes a nice pop when the container is opened, indicating that the container had been sealed properly and no bugs have been growing. But the vacuum does not do anything directly in regard to food preservation like killing the bugs. They are already dead after being cooked".
The replacement of the air gap by steam is vital to the cooking process as air is not aseptic. Air pockets also act as an insulating barrier, this is why you are able to reach into a hot oven with an unprotected arm and not get burnt. In processing, autoclave pressures are closely monitored for pressure increases which indicate either a temperature increase or the presence of air. Venting is critical and closely monitored.
Contrary to lay belief, not all organisms are "dead" after the cooking and sterilising process as you posted; the vacuum prevents the reactivation of heat resistant enzymes.
Not all active pathogens produce gas.
Full cans or 'heavyweights' are detected and swept from the filling line prior to the seamer to safeguard against cans being processed without a vacuum.
It is commonly believed that steam is devoid of air. Pure steam is, but it is a rare commodity. Low pressure steam is a recipe for air pockets and I imagine that your limited supply would somewhat limit venting. I assume that your system has been steam cooking 'safe' food without problems for some time now but I also know that fish is a staple diet in many Asian regions. Some fish host parasites in their flesh that can, without proper cooking, transfer to a human host.
In your opening post, you wrote: "And where I can initiate something on a small scale that can possibly grow". You have engaged on a project that could easily grow and many such projects do grow in unexpected directions to assume a life of their own. It is difficult to visualise the project without photos & video but sounds like a great project and I wish you well. I think JB would be a worthwhile asset as he has that rare ability to disect conventional practique and think outside the square without prejudice. In research and development, existing beliefs and text books are best left at the door.
It would benefit people wanting to assist if you could post more information.
Three questions:
Is the process used by individual families or is it communal?
Has the process been assessed for food safety etc?
Have you considered liaising with a regional charitable organisation? (Tax deductible company donations, assistance etc).
Diver
Member
Jb,
I don't agree with everything you say and don't understand every topic but I do enjoy reading everything you post. More stimulating than the crossword!
Cannot help but ask; have you ever traipsed the rocky product development pathway?
Jeffbloggs
Member
If you consider the construction of the first stand alone Biogas plant in AU a product, then yes. My roots are actually more in IT/Sound/Hydroponics and I was brought up in construction/engineering, however for the last 15 years of my 37 year life I have been actively involved in RE. I have lived most of my childhood years in Germany, as my parents were actively involved in work in eastern Europe, as well as South Africa and South America. From humble beginnings in solar concentrator R&D to wind turbine project management and government RE policy consultation, Biogas was born out of the conviction that it was by far the best RE, and provided the most complete impact on human activity out of all the renewable technologies. Essentially being a part of the carbon cycle, and as such a part of the cycle of life itself, I am a very passionate advocate for it's development worldwide. We are currently developing complete agriculture systems utilizing Biogas for two clients in Africa.
Similar to S2S, and due to my being a missionaries son, I have grown up with a strong commitment to helping those in need (I have seen the desperate, sick and hungry), and now I have reached a point were I believe we are all in desperate need for some fundamental life changing solutions. Yes, the road was at times rocky, but resistance builds strength and wisdom (so I've been told!), but through perseverance and fortitude we successfully navigated through our own GFC inflicted torment, and I believe I have come a long way personally, together with the support of a group of close nit business partners, family and friends, whom all share the same beliefs and ideals.
This attitude to life has also carried on to my kids, of which one daughter is half way through studying in university to become a environmental scientist, and the other has already completed university and is a Christian College high school teacher. My Swiss/Czech wife teaches languages and music there as well. I also have two sons that still attend the same primary school, whom I'm trying educate in the ways of the world as best as a dad can. Fundamentally, I believe that by being good parents for our children, we are automatically obliged to give them the necessary tools for survival in this world, and at the same time must commit our lives for their well being, at the cost of our own desires and needs. This is the main purpose of life, as to better all mankind. (Sorry for the preaching, I suppose it's in the blood!)
Nice to discuss with a free radical, Jeffblogs. My experience as a former industrial chemist tells me that we can safely co-operate as long as I don't become a radical myself because we might recombine. I may need some radical scavengers to avoid a radical chain reaction. I will reply when I find more time. This week is too busy.
As a 'so called scientist' I will stay happily within the realms of scientific physics and chemistry. There is already more than enough to investigate and I don't need extra miracles.
And Diver I think we are not that far apart. I agree with essentially all you have been saying. But we seem to disagree a bit about what's the action and what's the consequence. The treatments and procedures you describe are OK and important. But the vacuum (meaning low pressure) as such is not important. The vacuum is just a consequence of these procedures. It is not the reason that kills the bugs or keeps them at bay. For instance a sterile nitrogen or argon gas released into any of these 'vacuum' applications (in a sterile way) increasing the pressure to ambient would not cause any additional growth of bacteria, unless the seals will start leaking because of reduced suction.
And about cooking and bacteria. With the exception of some kinds of meat and fish I could eat all food I eat raw without bad consequences from bacteria, but some food has to be cooked to make it digestible (e.g. potatoes, legumes, pumpkin, rice, pasta..) or tastier or easier to chew.
Diver
Member
Jb,
Thanks heaps for that, really interesting. You are no longer a disembodied being inside my computer!
You don't overly state it, but your change in life's direction from comfort zone to the Biogas development must have involved a lot of sacrifice. As you say, a strong support base is vital.
S2S,
I agree, sometimes the wording can be interpreted differently as to the overall meaning of what's intended. Sorry if I got a bit stroppy!
Re your project, aside from the humanitarian aspect, the strong appeal of it to me is that you are using existing technology for a previously unconsidered use. Unfortunately, I do not deal in your technology and so am not able to offer practical advice. As of next year, I will be travelling interstate quite a lot and I have a Merc van so perhaps I could help out at times with interstate transit of goods if applicable to your situation. My company already has a strong (sporting) sponsorship commitment.
Jeffbloggs
Member
I hope so too Rockabye...
No probs S2S,
I look forward being the free radical that permeates your (free) energy barrier, and with the help of a catalyst, and a spark of ingenuity, combusts your preconceptions to a crisp. I hope the ensuring chain reaction will result in a Diradical, so that we can coexist in a harmonic translucence of truth, and be surfers of that elusive electromagnetic wave, that will finally lead us to the enlightenment of "real" scientific progress, when you find the time. In the mean time, however, I'll be holding back my free and radical positive potential, until you let me discharge, to your down to earth ways! So viel zum fachsimpln! BTW when you find some more time, can you bring me some too?
And last but not least, Diver, glad to be human again, was getting cramped being in that "box" you put me in!
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